Negotiating on build price

[Teleplucker]

The absolute easiest way to get a discount on a luthier built guitar is to buy a used one from the classified section here. You might not get exactly what you want but unless you have really exotic tastes you can come really close. And you don’t have to wait for months or years to get your guitar.

[Deliberate1]

Originally Posted by RP

I've never considered a custom guitar because it seems that the old adage is true with a slight modification: If you have to ask [for a discount], then you probably can't afford it."

There are things I can afford. There are things I cannot afford. And then, there are things I choose to afford.
David

[justonwo]

For what it's worth, most builders I know don't bristle at the notion of being asked for a discount. Probably not in the base price, but if you purchase enough upgrades (as Simon Fay has already mentioned). It is possible that you may turn off a builder, especially if their base price is already low. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong or evil in asking, but just try to understand most aren't making a lot of dough . . . so be reasonable and empathetic.

[theEdwinson]

Originally Posted by justonwo

I run a business. Your back or the envelope numbers aren’t even close. I’d say builders are likely to be living off a 20-30% net margin at the most, assuming the accounting is done properly. For one thing, I know of very few builders who can make more than one guitar a month, so your assumption only holds true for folks like Olson or Goodall, who have a setup that allows significant production. Luthierie is not an easy living. My guess is that anyone charging less than $10k for a guitar is likely just scraping by. They probably have a spouse that’s supplementing their income.

Thanks for posting, justonwo (responding to "mercy"). I am also a sole proprietor luthier, and the guitars I make are each unique, most of them taking about 150-170 hours to make. This year, I am raising my base prices for the first time since 2012. I love doing this work, and I've had steady work to do, but after twenty years in this business, I'm still making about as much as an apprentice house carpenter. It's been tough to keep the wolf from the door some months, and at those infrequent times when I sell a spec guitar, I never spend my earnings on luxuries for myself. I stock up on truss rods, tuners, bridge pins, glue, tools, and if there's anything left over, I'll add some tonewoods to my stash. Every penny that doesn't go straight into my rent and monthly living expenses goes straight back into the business.

Yes, there are some (very few) superstar luthiers who make a very comfortable living, but by and large, my colleagues in the biz are living frugally and sweating their monthly bills. I sure do; and I missed the boat when it comes to the high-earning spouse. I worry what will happen if I injure myself or get sick, because I have no one to depend on except myself.
Jus' say'n

[theEdwinson]

Originally Posted by TomB'sox

I am not sure where you are getting your information from. I do not know anyone that has said they can build a guitar within a week let alone including finishing...I would say that is impossible. I have seen more say 80-120 hours per guitar. $3000.00 you say will find you a bunch of builders? You will not find very many if any of the respected builders on the AGF for that.

I also have never negotiated with my dentist.

You are also not factoring in many of the costs that builders have and frankly I think you are being unfair in your assessments. Your definition of great wood varies from mine if you are finding it for 100-150 dollars.

I really don't even want to go further as you will disagree with what I say anyway, but I feel you really are way off in your assessments and I find it insulting to our AGF builders.

I wish this Forum had a LIKE button. What YOU said, Tom!

[runamuck]

Originally Posted by theEdwinson

Thanks for posting, justonwo. I am also a sole proprietor luthier, and the guitars I make are each unique, most of them taking about 150-170 hours to make. This year, I am raising my base prices for the first time since 2012. I love doing this work, and I've had steady work to do, but after twenty years in this business, I'm still making about as much as an apprentice house carpenter. It's been tough to keep the wolf from the door some months, and at those infrequent times when I sell a spec guitar, I never spend my earnings on luxuries for myself. I stock up on truss rods, tuners, bridge pins, glue, tools, and if there's anything left over, I'll add some tonewoods to my stash. Every penny that doesn't go straight into my rent and monthly living expenses goes straight back into the business.

Yes, there are some (very few) superstar luthiers who make a very comfortable living, but by and large, my colleagues in the biz are living frugally and sweating their monthly bills. I sure do; and I missed the boat when it comes to the high-earning spouse. I worry what will happen if I injure myself or get sick, because I have no one to depend on except myself.
Jus' say'n

With this honest description of the majority of luthiers financial situations, I think it's a clear insult to even bring the subject up.

EDIT: It's not an insult. It's just wrong.

[theEdwinson]

Originally Posted by runamuck

With this honest description of the majority of luthiers financial situations, I think it's a clear insult to even bring the subject up.

EDIT: It's not an insult. It's just wrong.

I ALWAYS give my clients a few extras at no charge, because as an artisan's prerogative, I feel that having some creative latitude on every build is a luxury, for ME, the builder. I've had a number of clients who pushed me outside my comfort zone and made me question my choice of careers, but the large majority have been splendid people to work with, and I've made many fine friends in this work.

I do everything I can to give my clients a lot of guitar for the money, and while my reward for that may not be financial, I have to say the satisfaction of putting a dream guitar into someone's hands gives me a kind of satisfaction I can't get any other way. I am in the business of making people happy. I am in the business of making these devices that enable people to speak the universal language of humanity-- MUSIC. How many people can truthfully say that about their jobs?

Yeah, sometimes I feel exhausted from the toil and the razor's edge margins I earn. But most of the time I feel far more blessed than I have a right to be.

[The Bard Rocks]

First off, you should be prepared to pay what the builder asks. But if you want to dicker some, that's your prerogative. They won't accept if they are not satisfied. I can dicker with most anyone and still remain friends. Not everyone can, which can include the other side - which is worth keeping in mind. I have also learned not to bargain to the last red cent; it's counter-productive and leads to bad feelings for both parties.

But a more successful practice I have employed is give them what they want and they will be more likely to give you what you want. Meaning upgrades, closer attention, special modifications you may want, etc.. If you have a budget, be upfront with it and if they can work with it, my bet is that they will.

[Deliberate1]

Originally Posted by runamuck

With this honest description of the majority of luthiers financial situations, I think it's a clear insult to even bring the subject up.

EDIT: It's not an insult. It's just wrong.

OP here. I am sorry that you are offended by a legitimate question posed by someone who is new to the world of guitars and is legitimately trying to understand the dynamics in a marketplace that is new to me as well. This is what due diligence means.
May I suggest that you go back to my query and reread it. It was posed with no pretext or suggestion that luthiers do not earn an honest living or that I do not value what they do. As an artist and musician, I do.
My friend, there are subjects that are inherently offensive. I respectfully suggest to you that, in a world of chaotic and disturbing ideas and senseless controversy, this is not one of them.
David

[jperryrocks]

I don’t think negotiating is the right word at times. Sometimes you can get a builder to give you a bundle package on options and upgrades. They might throw in a few tweaks without charging you extra.

Why argue and try to get a 9000 guitar for 8200? Chances are you’re going to lose a lot more than that on resale if you ever have to part with it.

Many up and coming builders are more aggressive on price and upgrades, until they explode and then double their price when they get overwhelmed with orders.

[Tim McKnight]

Here's a novel idea ... We are having a Covid-19 cabin fever SALE!

"Buy a T-shirt from us and get a FREE guitar, yes I did say a FREE guitar."


BTW, I suspect many of the other AGF forum luthier sponsors might offer you or anyone else a similar deal as well. Our T-shirt prices might vary considerably as to what is currently posted on our websites so inquire within.

[Jamiejoon]

I feel we are living in the golden age of lutherie. There are many incredible artisans who have accepted a challenging way of making a living, for the joy of doing something really well, to carry on the honorable tradition, and to push the boundaries of what is possible - acoustically and aesthetically. These guys (and women) are SO good at what they do, and I feel there is something sacred about the endeavor. To me, it is a privilege to be able to support their work, and to collaborate in the process in some small way...Like "Uh, yes, I like brown color. Brown color very nice. You use weird wood? Me happy."

My custom guitars are treasures to me, certainly my most valued material possessions. If the house catches on fire, I am going for the guitars. I am not saying a $600 guitar is not a treasure, or that you have to commission an expensive guitar to feel that it is a hotline to God. Certainly not! But I would be very reluctant to negotiate over the price of the build. For me, an important part of the mojo of the guitar is in it being a project that the luthier felt joyful/inspired to execute, and I would never want them to have mixed feelings about the deal. It's important to me that they feel good about it.

[MC5C]

I had someone dicker with me once, happened to be a race car I had built, and priced just above costs. He said he wanted to pay less, I said sure, what do you want me to take off the car? Wheels? Clutch? He said a few things, I took them off, later he paid for them and paid me to put them back on. I tend not to dicker, I tend to set a price and if someone doesn't want to pay it, I don't need to sell it to them.

[GeoffStGermaine]

I don't see anything wrong with asking for a discount. The response you get is likely going to depend a lot on the personality of the builder, how their pricing works, etc. As we've seen here from some of the builders that have posted, they have differing viewpoints on their response to such a request.

I build a very small number of instruments and many are to repeat customers. I'm not reliant on this for my household income, all of the money generated is rolled back into machinery, stock and other expenses related to building. So this obviously colours my response.

I've given discounts to repeat customers, though I have never had a customer ask for it. It has been successful in getting some fairly predictable repeat business. I will also discount options certain compounded options, particularly where they are complementary, for example someone wants arm, back and cutaway bevels.

In my view, if a customer asks, the builder has the option of saying yes or no, or engaging in a negotiation. If someone approached me on it, my hope would be that it's something along the lines of "I have $XXXX to spend and I'd like to get as close to (insert specs/options) as possible, what can you do?" That's something that's probably more agreeable to work with than asking for a detailed quote and then just trying to negotiate down. That said, if someone did that I wouldn't just immediately end a conversation on it unless I felt the tone or offer were disrespectful and could afford to be particular with my choice of customers.

[Guitars44me]

Originally Posted by Teleplucker

The absolute easiest way to get a discount on a luthier built guitar is to buy a used one from the classified section here. You might not get exactly what you want but unless you have really exotic tastes you can come really close. And you don’t have to wait for months or years to get your guitar.

This makes perfect sense!!! And it is a fine way to get a sense of what a builder is creating. In the time it would take to have one built you could easily sample a few, and figure out what works for YOU.

Enjoy the hunt!

Paul