Figuring out this 5D guitar sound - equipment?

[Doug Young]

Yep, as I mentioned there are *lots* of good reverbs out there, and I think that's one key ingredient that's catching our OPs attention. The Strymon BigSky is good. The newish Strymon CoudBurst is very cool. What I use is the UAD Golden Reverberator, which basically gives you UA's studio reverbs in a pedal. I recently tried Walrus Audio's R1, and tho I ultimately decided to stick with the UAD pedal, it was very impressive and very expansive sounding. I think this is the pedal Trevor Gordon Hall is using live, and he is always awash in really massive sounding reverb. There are others. The Eventide pedals are great, probably 20 more out there. No lack of good reverbs these days.

All of these reverbs sound best in stereo, adding that extra dimensionality that is another key ingredient, and that has implications for the sound system, the room acoustics of the performance space, the seating arrangement (so the audience actually hears the stereo and not just one side) and so on.

[NordicLights]

Thanks to everyone, and sorry for the late reply.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I think the differences in your first 2 examples are the difference between a high end studio and a home recording. Everything from the environment to the mix is different. The 1st one is *way* louder, for one thing, which influences your perception. But even that aside, they're radically different in every way. The 2nd looks like its recorded at home in a small room. We can't even see what mics (if any) are used. There's tons of reverb on both, but on the 1st, the mix is good, the raw guitar sound is huge - probably compressed and EQ'd, while on the 2nd the guitar just disappears into a less impressive sounding reverb. The 2nd seems to have a chorus on it, I assume she's plugged in? In contrast, the 1st is great mics in a great sound room, presumably with a good engineer who knows how to capture and process the sound.

As far as getting that sound (the 1st) live, that will be a challenge. But you could come close if you play in a great acoustically-designed listening room with a great sound system, good mics and good reverb. Basically like the studio, but with an audience. I've heard sound this good at the Freight & Salvage in Berkeley, for example. Very high end room, designed for acoustics from the ground up. Mega buck Myer's sound system and so on. Every element contributes, and everything has to be high quality. If you're asking how to get that sound using a combo amp in a coffee house, it's probably not going to happen. The amplification system will have a huge impact, and most things you can carry into a gig aren't going to cut it, regardless of your pickups, etc. Room acoustics also matter, and most non-concert rooms aren't going to help you.

There is a lot of nice gear out there, that can make you sound good if you have to use pickups, tho, within limits. Pickups are better than ever these days. Tonedexter will help you get rid of remaining "quack". An internal mic can help a lot too. I use a stereo setup that produces a sound I'm certainly happy with when the room and sound system supports it - the stereo aspect can help produce some sense of space. There are a number of really good sounding reverb pedals out there as well. For this sound, again, preferably stereo reverb (with the assumption that both room layout, acoustics and the sound system can support that). And there's nothing to prevent you from using a full rack system, with full-fledged studio effects, either, other than expense, hassle of carrying it, etc. Anyway, overall, I'd say "can you do it?" Yes, or at least get close enough that a live audience will be happy as long as you're not doing an A/B compare. Can you do it on a budget? Not likely. Can you do it in an arbitrary coffee shop, bar, etc? Probably not.

Thanks, Doug, for a great, detailed answer. It's a great honor to meet you. I bought your Dadgad guitar book some time ago, and I am eager to start learning new things and your You Tube channel is just deep and inspiring and the sound of your guitars is exqusite and I am sure I can find many answers there. Thanks. But the idea of good stereo reverb on top of my intended two amps for stereo is what I need to research more.

I wanted to just go with similar Jon Gomm equipment on top of the pair of Sonnet amps

https://jongomm.com/pedalboard

https://jongomm.com/amp

but then use the guitar more traditionally, mostly in Dadgad. Jon already manages to get some of that stereo on the stage by using his effects plus two amps, but this Seiko sound was so special and natural, due to the LDC mikes I guess, plus much better quality reverbs, I guess...

Originally Posted by runamuck

I'd guess that what you like about that is mostly the reverb. I use Seventh Heaven, a plugin based on an expensive Bricasti. Although I never use anywhere near that amount of reverb, I can get that sound using a chamber - Sunset Chamber to be precise.

But aside from that, it's a high quality recording and a good sounding guitar which have have a large part to play here.

Yeah, I just checked the Bricasti, and the price is very high. Can a Seventh Heaven plugin be used live as well? I am not sure if this question is stupid, since I am new to these things. If not, is there some pedal based on Bricasti?

Originally Posted by b1j

Oh.

How about Dolby Atmos for that?

Was it done before, or are you joking ? I am also not sure if I have the slightest idea if it can be done in a small venue.

Originally Posted by Rudy4

I'm still waiting for an answer to the same question, asked in post #10. Evidently the O.P. doesn't have any idea either.

Originally Posted by Rudy4

Am I just dumb? I have absolutely no conception of what "5D" means. Hopefully it's something new that I just missed.

Seiko's playing is lovely, but these recordings are just drenched WAY too heavily in reverb. That's all I hear because it's so over the top.

My English is limited, so I didn't know how else to call the super intense 3D sound image I am after, and I could hear it in this recording more than usual. Yes, I actually like this heavy reverb. Usualy, when you add some mediocre reverb to the mediocre plugged-in sound, it sounds just too synthetic, but here I could hear that awesome natural sound of the guitar plus the very nice clean reverb at the top, which would be a dream come true on the stage for me.

I believe there are some guitars out there that sound very 3D naturaly unplugged, having lots of natural reverb and overtones and that intense bloom and also lots of dramatic tonal properties, like, for instance, the Concert Grand Steinway, but the cost is just out of my reach (20–30 K) and they can probably be problematic to amplify.

Originally Posted by KevWind

Well here is one answer

Originally Posted by KevWind

While plugging into a pickup might be one approach that someone could use, (that is not what is going on in the video)
In the video the reverb effect is almost certainly and insert effect in the DAW. My guess it is set up as a parallel effect (on it's own track ) and it is either a plugin or plugins or studio grade outboard reverb processor as a hardware insert and likely a room or space emulation

If someone wants to try to replicate what's going on in the video and cost is an issue you can do it for much much less than either a ToneDexter or Strymon pedal (or even for free) you can use either just your DAW bundled reverb and or delay, or for example you can get something like The Valhalla Room for $50 ,. OR something like Liquid Sonics Seventh Heaven plugin for $69 or their REVERBERATE plugin for $99

Originally Posted by KevWind

Ah yes I did not remember that criteria OK with plugged in, in mind I don't know how "close" but Strymon reverb pedals can indeed create big reverb sound but they are pricey

For about 1/2 the price of Strymon the new Electro Harmonix Oceans 12 ($215) can get some big sounding reverb also

Thanks for all the suggestions and additional helpfull tips KevWind

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Yep, as I mentioned there are *lots* of good reverbs out there, and I think that's one key ingredient that's catching our OPs attention. The Strymon BigSky is good. The newish Strymon CoudBurst is very cool. What I use is the UAD Golden Reverberator, which basically gives you UA's studio reverbs in a pedal. I recently tried Walrus Audio's R1, and tho I ultimately decided to stick with the UAD pedal, it was very impressive and very expansive sounding. I think this is the pedal Trevor Gordon Hall is using live, and he is always awash in really massive sounding reverb. There are others. The Eventide pedals are great, probably 20 more out there. No lack of good reverbs these days.

All of these reverbs sound best in stereo, adding that extra dimensionality that is another key ingredient, and that has implications for the sound system, the room acoustics of the performance space, the seating arrangement (so the audience actually hears the stereo and not just one side) and so on.

Thank you, Doug; this is a lot of knowledge to digest for me for now. Do you offer private Skype consultations or lessons if I need one in the near future?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by NordicLights

T
Thank you, Doug; this is a lot of knowledge to digest for me for now. Do you offer private Skype consultations or lessons if I need one in the near future?

Happy to, just contact me thru my web site if I can help. Another suggestion for you, since you seem to be trying to match Jon Gomm's setup, is to reach out to him. I haven't connected with him in person myself, but my impression is that he's a pretty open and helpful guy. This is rather old, but if you havent' seen this, it might help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4ECPsHpI_Q

Just uses a Roland reverb and stereo delay. His website currently just lists a Zoom multi-stomp for effects:

https://jongomm.com/pedalboard

Keep in mind that Jon's probably not usually playing in small spaces with just his amps, the amps are probably mostly for stage, with the sound being sent to the house PA for the audience.

But there are so many options. One of the hugest, reverbiest sounds I've heard live recently was the CA Guitar Trio. All three had ToneDexters to start with, but then each had their own effects setup. One guy had the Eventide H9 pedal, and another had a Line 6 Helix, and I forget the 3rd setup. But it was massive and very reverb-heavy. Reverb zinging all around the hall! There were 3 of them, so I guess that made it 9D!

Yeah, I just checked the Bricasti, and the price is very high. Can a Seventh Heaven plugin be used live as well? I am not sure if this question is stupid, since I am new to these things. If not, is there some pedal based on Bricasti?

I'm not aware of any VST plugin players for live use that would let you use these plugins. People do, however, use laptops to have basically a whole studio setup live, and then you can use any plugins you want. For a while, I was using a Mac Laptop with an UA Apollo, to give me basically a portable studio on stage. It sounded really good. But it was awkward, and making any adjustments made it look like I was checking my email :-) There are some companies that make both software and hardware versions of their effects: UA, Strymon, Eventide, Neunaber, probably others I'm forgetting. There are a number of good rack reverbs out there - one of my better-sounding past stereo setups was a Pendulum SPS-1 preamp feeding a TC Electronic Reverb 4000 (a lot cheaper than the Bricasti). That sounded great. But I got tired of lugging around a rack and dealing with it on stage as well.

[Doug Young]

These won't compete with the good studio recording, but here are two examples of good stereo reverb pedals I have used. First is the UAD Golden Reverberator. I'm not sure what I did here, but there are 3 examples of progressively wetter sounds. The UAD emulates a Lexicon 224 and an EMT plate. This is just with my dual source pickup system, recorded direct out of my pedal board:



Before I started using the UAD, I used a Ventris reverb pedal, which was also a very nice reverb. I don't remember recording this, but I seem to be cycling thru various settings, and it gets wetter and more processed as it goes on. Again, this is a pickup, not mics, so not going to be as nice as a good pair of mics in the studio.

[Doug Young]

Ah, here's the original post where I describe what the various settings on the Ventris are:

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/....php?p=6317778