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  #61  
Old 02-28-2016, 05:18 PM
tdq tdq is offline
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I enjoyed this thread - I got an unbranded 12 string off Gumtree (Australia's craigslist) very cheap - and sure enough it's unplayable, totally needs a neck reset. I can't bang in a nail straight but I am going to try and do a bolt-on neck reset along these lines. This thread will be one of my references for sure.
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  #62  
Old 02-28-2016, 05:53 PM
johna2u johna2u is offline
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Originally Posted by tdq View Post
I enjoyed this thread - I got an unbranded 12 string off Gumtree (Australia's craigslist) very cheap - and sure enough it's unplayable, totally needs a neck reset. I can't bang in a nail straight but I am going to try and do a bolt-on neck reset along these lines. This thread will be one of my references for sure.
Great! The advantage to doing it this way is you get do overs if you screw up. It really wasn't hard But it is a pretty precise project. The neck has to end up straight strong and in tune. Plus you can easily crack the heel if the holes are too tight for your inserts. It is not a bad idea to add a few drops of wood glue to the threads when you screw them in. The wet glue adds lubrication while installing them and when it dries it holds the inserts much better.

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  #63  
Old 02-28-2016, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by johna2u View Post
I do agree with you that a wood to wood joint is better. As two pieces of wood joined together will last longer than a metal to wood joint. As the wood flexes over time the metal fastener will ream out the hole in the wood. Making the joint loose. Whereas a wood to wood joint will flex as if it were one piece of wood.

But over time both joints will need to be repaired and the metal to wood joint is easier to fix and causes less trauma on the guitar. Tonally I would think as long as the neck and the heel block are butted up tight to each other it should be no different. Unless you are talking about a fine violin maybe. But this is a mass produced Harmony and my joint is tighter than the original factory set up, considering the thickness of the glue I found. There was very little wood to wood contact.

Plus the way I did it is completely reversible. Something I like to make sure I do when I restore furniture.

So why do you say I assaulted it with bolts? What do you see as the problem with that?
You removed original wood when you drilled those holes and set your anchors in the neck. That is not reversible. It can be put right in terms of structure, but it can never be original condition again.

Bolts are heavy, ugly, and completely unnecessary in this case. I used the word "assaulted" because what I really want to call it would get be booted from the forum.

It's your guitar and you certainly have a right to treat it any way you want. However, our views of how to care for and maintain vintage instruments are so far apart that I don't think we can have a productive conversation. We're speaking two different languages.
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  #64  
Old 02-28-2016, 08:59 PM
johna2u johna2u is offline
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Thanks for the input. Something for people to consider.

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  #65  
Old 02-28-2016, 10:01 PM
johna2u johna2u is offline
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Originally Posted by Hot Vibrato View Post
It's not a real hard job at all - if you don't care what it looks like, and if you're not that critical about neck angle and alignment. If you want it to look perfect, and if you want to be precise about your final measurements, then it will be time consuming and tricky.

I've done dozens of neck resets, and it's still a little scary for me, especially since I'm working on other peoples' valuable vintage guitars. And I have had problems and pitfalls with resets in the past, so I'm aware of what could go wrong. I'm proud to say that every reset I've done has come out looking like a perfect factory neck joint (no gaps, no finish chipping, etc.), and with ideal neck angle and saddle height. Like I mentioned before, I've had a couple that didn't go together like they did in the dry run, and I had to I steam them out and do them over again. I've also had chips and other finish complications, but I'm good at doing lacquer drop fills and touchups. This is a skill that a furniture restorer is likely to have, so you have an advantage here.

The good news for you is that if it doesn't come out perfect, then at least it's your own guitar, and it's only a Harmony.

Regarding top bellying, I'd say that it's pretty uncommon for that to be a serious issue on those old Harmonys. Regarding saddle location/intonation, I'd say just do the reset and see how it comes out. If necessary, you can fill and recut the saddle slot or build a new bridge.

As far as glue choice is concerned, the only glue types I'd recommend are hot hide glue, Titebond, or that polyvinyl glue that LMI sells. I have no experience with the latter, but I've done resets with both Titebond and hide glue. as I mentioned before, I prefer hide glue, because Titebond has more of a tendency to seize before the joint is completely closed. Hot hide glue is slick as snot, and it closes up reliably. Therefore my personal preference is hide glue. If you use Titebond, time is crucial because of its tendency to grab quickly. If you use hide glue, time is crucial because it can't cool too much before you apply clamp pressure or its strength will be compromised. Either way, rehearse your gluing operation several times before actually gluing it up.

I noticed on your list of items, you listed "paint scrapers". If you use one of these, you should taper the end pretty thin. I recommend using an artist's palette knife or a similar thin metal spatula.

On the youtube video with the Harmony reset, the guy used an xacto to mark the taper on the neck heel. I prefer to use a fine file or sanding stick to do a tapered bevel to the edge, and then I chisel as close as I dare to the edge of it, and then I'll pull strips of sandpaper through like they demonstrate in the video to achieve the final coutour. Put masking tape on the body on either side of the dovetail to protect the finish from getting scraped up by the back of the sandpaper dragging sanding particles across the surface. Beveling the edge like this will help avoid finish chips. If you sand or chisel on an un-beveled heel, it's very likely to chip.

I'm glad to hear that you've chosen to do the job properly. It doesn't make much financial sense, but I really do think of those Harmonys as "sleepers" on the vintage market. They look cool, and they sound fantastic - not like an OM or an L-00, but they have their own unique sound that's cool on blues or jazz.

Good luck, and let me know if I can help in any way.
Hey Hot Vibrato. Just wanted to thank you for all the advice on this project.

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  #66  
Old 02-28-2016, 10:51 PM
TNO TNO is offline
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"I don't think we can have a productive conversation. We're speaking two different languages."

Yep, that's a valid way to feel. Might be more productive to let it go and go play guitar or something.
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  #67  
Old 02-29-2016, 08:33 AM
Hot Vibrato Hot Vibrato is offline
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Originally Posted by Todd Yates View Post
You removed original wood when you drilled those holes and set your anchors in the neck. That is not reversible. It can be put right in terms of structure, but it can never be original condition again.

Bolts are heavy, ugly, and completely unnecessary in this case. I used the word "assaulted" because what I really want to call it would get be booted from the forum.

It's your guitar and you certainly have a right to treat it any way you want. However, our views of how to care for and maintain vintage instruments are so far apart that I don't think we can have a productive conversation. We're speaking two different languages.
Sorry to butt in here. I get your point. I feel the same way about vintage guitars. I do repair/restoration professionally, and I feel very strongly about maintaining originality when it's practical to do so. But this is a $100 guitar we're talking about here. It's just not a big deal to alter something that has no real collector's value anyways. John found a way to make the job quicker and simpler, and easier to disassemble if it didn't come out right. I think it's brilliant, and totally appropriate in this case. And when you consider the value of the guitar, I think it's way out of line to chastise the guy for altering it. Furthermore, it's his guitar, and he can set it on fire if he wants (actually, he almost did).

For the record, if this had been a thread about "should I reset the neck on my vintage OM-28?", I would say no way - you're crazy if you try that. Practice on a a few Harmony guitars first and make sure you can do a clean and accurate job before you do work to a valuable guitar which can't be undone. As far as I'm concerned, that's what those old Harmony guitars are for. I bought a couple while I was learning the art of guitar repair. I called them "cadavers", and I tore them up, and I don't regret it a bit. They do sound great though when you get them playing good.

I've played many modern guitars that have bolt on necks. Some high end builders such as Dana Bourgeois use bolt-on construction. As far as I can see or hear, there is absolutely no drawbacks from using bolts to attach a neck, other than the fact that any deviation from tradition will be considered inferior by certain purists and nay-sayers. A few extra grams of brass and steel won't make an otherwise good guitar sound bad, period.
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  #68  
Old 02-29-2016, 08:44 AM
Hot Vibrato Hot Vibrato is offline
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Originally Posted by johna2u View Post
Hey Hot Vibrato. Just wanted to thank you for all the advice on this project.
Any time. If anything I said here made the job go easier for you, then it was worth the time it took to give you my input. Congratulations on a job well done. Don't let outside criticism diminish your (well deserved) sense of accomplishment.

The fact that you managed to get the job done so quickly inspired me. I'll be spending the majority of my day adjusting neck angle on a D-28 and an old LG-2, and I'll be hopefully gluing in shims if all goes well. Wish me luck!
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  #69  
Old 02-29-2016, 09:26 AM
johna2u johna2u is offline
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Originally Posted by Hot Vibrato View Post
. But this is a $100 guitar we're talking about here.
Hey! It's a 200.00 guitar!....or...it was.

Yes, I would not have attempted this on a Martin. I'm not that crazy. I do respect that Harmony's are a vintage collectable guitar even if they are inexpensive.

After watching all the reset videos I could find I figure this method could save up to a week in the process. One guy suggested letting the joint dry out for a week. Then clamp and dry for 24 hours. I was able to do it start to finish in one afternoon. I guess if the neck had been stubborn it would have needed more dry time first.

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  #70  
Old 03-01-2016, 08:35 AM
hat hat is offline
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Originally Posted by Hot Vibrato View Post
But this is a $100 guitar we're talking about here. It's just not a big deal to alter something that has no real collector's value anyways.
I've played many modern guitars that have bolt on necks. Some high end builders such as Dana Bourgeois use bolt-on construction. As far as I can see or hear, there is absolutely no drawbacks from using bolts to attach a neck, other than the fact that any deviation from tradition will be considered inferior by certain purists and nay-sayers. A few extra grams of brass and steel won't make an otherwise good guitar sound bad, period.
The point is, the intrinsic value of this guitar in original vintage condition is now gone. The fact that it is ( was ) JUST a $100 guitar is meaningless. What it WAS is a survivor of an era in American guitar history. This is no different than if you had done it on an 1890 Martin - end result is the same - only the perceived value is different. Ever hear of Karma? Of course this is just my opinion. I take the same stand on those that take vintage cars and turn them into hot rods. Yes, what you did was not structurally injurious to it, and perhaps even an improvement ( based on modern technology Like the examples mentioned above), but the originality of the guitar is now lost.
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  #71  
Old 03-01-2016, 08:52 AM
johna2u johna2u is offline
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The guitar was not in in original condition when I got it! The headstock overlay was completely missing. What I did to it was an improvement in its design and it is a better guitar now than when it was new. Had I hacked off the dovetail and then installed bolts it would have destroyed the guitar. The way I did it actually improved it.

I am going to play, tinker with, and enjoy this guitar. Not sit and watch it rot behind glass pining for a bygone era. It lives in the world today. I agree there are times when preservation of originality is important but I really think you guys are going overboard on this one.

Do you not agree my design modification actually adds to the toolkit available to people to fix this issue. Not everybody can afford to pay 500.00 for a neck reset or have a pristine collection of vintage guitars.

I devised an alternative to the very destructive saw off technique that will actually probably save many guitars in the future. And I took the time to document how to do it.

Guitars are meant to be played. Not hoarded.

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  #72  
Old 03-01-2016, 07:24 PM
johna2u johna2u is offline
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I would just like to say that all the comments about the importance of originality is valuable information to those that might come across this thread in hopes of finding a way make their guitar playable. Those points are definitely something to take under consideration.

I've been a member here for about a month and in that time I see that we are all here because we love acoustic guitars. Maybe for vastly different reasons but it connects us all together just the same.

Some of us love the history and heritage and think of a guitar as a work of art that must be maintained in the condition of the original maker. Others just like to make music. Even if it is on a Hello Kitty guitar. There are some that worry they don't have enough 5000.00 guitars and others that are thrilled because they just got a brand new 200.00 Chinese model. Professional musicians and those that are struggling with their first chord.

I am sure there are many people out there with an old, maybe collectible guitar that needs work. They may not have the money to have it done. Nor the skills to do it properly. They just want to play and fix it themselves if they can. They should have a right to do that without being looked down upon.

Even though the opinions about preservation are appreciated I think comments like "assaulted with bolts! Unbelievable!". Are just mean spirited and unproductive.

Personally I think being overly obsessive about this is the equivalent of putting plastic slip covers on your sofa. Sure the fabric will last longer but what is the point if you can't enjoy the feel of the fabric.

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Last edited by johna2u; 03-01-2016 at 10:25 PM.
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  #73  
Old 03-01-2016, 07:43 PM
H165 H165 is offline
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There's some pertinent info here:

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforu...problems-stuff

and here:

http://harmony.demont.net/kamikazie.php
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  #74  
Old 03-01-2016, 09:59 PM
Hot Vibrato Hot Vibrato is offline
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Originally Posted by hat View Post
The point is, the intrinsic value of this guitar in original vintage condition is now gone. The fact that it is ( was ) JUST a $100 guitar is meaningless. What it WAS is a survivor of an era in American guitar history. This is no different than if you had done it on an 1890 Martin - end result is the same - only the perceived value is different.
Being a guy who works on guitars for a living, I respect guitars. I literally get kind of sick to my stomach when I see stupid alterations and poor workmanship on good guitars. But when working on guitars, you MUST consider the value of the instrument when determining the appropriate way to deal with a repair. What is perfectly acceptable on one instrument is unthinkable on another. If it's a museum piece, you preserve it. If it's a utility piece, you make it playable in as practical a manner as possible. You make these judgments on a case by case basis.

I'm not sure what parallel universe you're living in where a harmony flattop deserves the same treatment as an 1890 Martin, but I'm afraid that your rationale defies logic.

What it WAS is a guitar that was completely unplayable, which would have undoubtedly REMAINED unplayable forever if it weren't for John taking on the project himself. Why? Because what it WAS is an old guitar that's not worth fixing, because there's a million more just like it, so they're a dime a dozen, unlike an 1890 Martin, which is a much finer instrument, and much more rare, and therefore much more deserving of being restored to as close to original condition as possible, by the most qualified luthier available.

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Originally Posted by hat View Post
Ever hear of Karma? Of course this is just my opinion. I take the same stand on those that take vintage cars and turn them into hot rods. Yes, what you did was not structurally injurious to it, and perhaps even an improvement ( based on modern technology Like the examples mentioned above), but the originality of the guitar is now lost.
Originality? In this case that's irrelevant. It was useless. Now it's once again a musical instrument after decades of silence. The guitar will now probably outlive all of us, and whoever winds up with it once we're gone will hardly notice the addition of the bolts in the neck, unless it needs another reset, which will be MUCH easier to facilitate thanks to John's modification - yet another reason why your rationale is completely misguided.

Because of John's work, and because of the perfectly appropriate modification he performed, this classic guitar will be played and enjoyed just like it was meant to, all over again, bolt or no bolt. Karma? You've got to be kidding...

Last edited by Hot Vibrato; 03-01-2016 at 10:06 PM.
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  #75  
Old 03-01-2016, 10:38 PM
johna2u johna2u is offline
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Originally Posted by H165 View Post
Wow! Those people should be hung in the village square!

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