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  #76  
Old 05-17-2014, 07:06 PM
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I did a quick session with the recorder. Again did a take on a song I'm familiar with. I'm playing my Alvarez with TR monels. Strings are kinda squeaky so disregard that, and the playing mistakes. I'm working on a very natural tone. Minimal EQ, little compressor, the last one has a little stereo enhancer. Just looking for some opinions on the thumb and low end from others perspective. Before it was over powering and drowning the melody. I've changed my single mic position to halfway between the sound hole and the 12th fret.... angled towards the 12th fret. The mic is 5-7inches away.

The song is the Berounka River Rak (3 takes) soundcloud
I think the thumb balance sounds fine on this. There's something a bit odd sounding, might just be your room acoustics, but I'm suspicious of things like your "stereo enhancer", especially since you're recording in mono (right?). It'd be interesting to hear a totally raw track with *no* effects at all. If you made the track downloadable, some people might take a crack at mixing and EQing to give you some alternate ideas.
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  #77  
Old 05-17-2014, 07:48 PM
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I think the thumb balance sounds fine on this. There's something a bit odd sounding, might just be your room acoustics, but I'm suspicious of things like your "stereo enhancer", especially since you're recording in mono (right?). It'd be interesting to hear a totally raw track with *no* effects at all. If you made the track downloadable, some people might take a crack at mixing and EQing to give you some alternate ideas.
There is only one track with "stereo enhancer". Not sure how to make it downloadable. I'm working with the freeware version of cubase so the effects are minimal. I'm open to ideas but would rather try them myself so I learn something, and yes mono.. Does mix done make it stereo, should I simulate stereo?
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  #78  
Old 05-17-2014, 08:08 PM
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There is only one track with "stereo enhancer". Not sure how to make it downloadable. I'm working with the freeware version of cubase so the effects are minimal. I'm open to ideas but would rather try them myself so I learn something, and yes mono.. Does mix done make it stereo, should I simulate stereo?
The "mix" function probably produces a stereo track in that there's sound coming out both speakers, but since each side is the same, it's effectively mono. I have no idea what your stereo enhancer does, but it's hard to enhance something that isn't there. It may be playing some games with phase, likely for the worse.

There's an option on soundcloud to allow a track to be downloaded. The benefit to you is that people can actually load your track into their own tools and get more info about your track - providing feedback to you beyond "sounds ok" or not. With soundcloud, all we get is a compressed playback that may not even be up to the quality of your track.
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  #79  
Old 05-17-2014, 09:32 PM
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I'll lookin into switching it... Are you nominating yourself for the experiment?
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  #80  
Old 05-17-2014, 09:41 PM
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I'll lookin into switching it... Are you nominating yourself for the experiment?
I'd happy to download it and give it a more critical listen and see if there's any advice I can offer. I'd prefer a raw track with absolutely no processing. There's not usually a lot to say about a mono track, most issues people have come up in stereo mic placement, but I'd be glad to see if there's anything I can suggest.
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  #81  
Old 05-17-2014, 11:15 PM
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Hey Doug and Rick-slo, Sorry your comments about the SC tracks I just noticed right now so that is why I haven't replied just yet. These tracks were my first short afternoon quickly try out. I did a little the next day and then again today
.
Most of today's efforts were just one Stereo track. I tried 2 things one x/y again, then I tried them at the farthest they could reach apart on a 5", or 6" Stereo bar. I couldn't get the two mics completely forward straight on as they(mostly one) was angled ever so slightly inward. Tried to find the best sweet-spot. I did mess more panning with the previous clips. I also re-tracked the double tracked idea but each was Stereo and here again messed with several panning choices. I think I liked between 9-10 and 2-3 o'clock.
Other experiments probably tomorrow is not to be tied to such a short Stereo bar. and use both e70's on a mic stand apiece.. Then I would try different positions but one either at the 12'th fret or perhaps closer to where the neck joins the body. with the other mic try to capture more of the body of the guiar w/o much boom could use the 3 HP filter option switches. Then finally am real curious with the second mic over the shoulder trick. I don't feel I have a decent enough LDC just yet. either buy another one or mod the MXL V67G. Ribbons are also something I am curious about as well.

The other incentive for me tracking today and tomorrow is I have on loan a Golden Age projects Pre-73(kind of designed after a (Neve) but it is mono, BUT the kicker is I own one as well, so the tracks today were going through those pres into the Steinberg UR22 audio interface(Yamaha's D-Pres) and those are really clean. I wanted to test for color/character and even though I was only in the first gain stage of the GAP's(they have 3) I did notice them warming up things. I may push them harder. What you do for a cleaner sound is have the output(right knob) up as much as you can and then adjust the left knob(input I guess) or you can turn the outs down(leftt stepped knob) and have more going into to the output trannys for even a thicker sound but must be careful not to get it too woolly. The Pre have mucho gain but like I said, find the right sweet-spot. I am thinking of getting the Warm Audio WA 12 which is more API and no need to mod as some do mod the GAP. I can always borrow my Pals Pre-73 and I guess I could loan him my warm.

This leads me to the discussion from another thread here that says preamps don't make that much difference. Well my ears tell me the contrary. Especially after my initial test and I wonder how much will be noticed when i do push the Gaps a little harder.

When I get new gear I just experiment even though it may not be the usual or correct way. it helps me rule out some ideas and perhaps try what I find may work best quicker, and that may include just one mic whether it be LDC or SDC.
Oh one more important note, all bets may be off in a sense when I have a busy mix and the Acoustic Gtr. is not so prominent
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  #82  
Old 05-17-2014, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Luke_ View Post
I did a quick session with the recorder. Again did a take on a song I'm familiar with. I'm playing my Alvarez with TR monels. Strings are kinda squeaky so disregard that, and the playing mistakes. I'm working on a very natural tone. Minimal EQ, little compressor, the last one has a little stereo enhancer. Just looking for some opinions on the thumb and low end from others perspective. Before it was over powering and drowning the melody. I've changed my single mic position to halfway between the sound hole and the 12th fret.... angled towards the 12th fret. The mic is 5-7inches away.

The song is the Berounka River Rak (3 takes) soundcloud
I gave them a quick listen and it is remarkable how well the mic you do have sounds pretty good. That probably has to do with the quality of your performance and playing skills. Let me give a listen to them again tomorrow as my ears need rest from the Sessions I had recorded and slightly mixed today
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  #83  
Old 05-18-2014, 12:05 AM
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I also re-tracked the double tracked idea but each was Stereo and here again messed with several panning choices. I think I liked between 9-10 and 2-3 o'clock.

My suggestion would be to try to find a sound you like by mic positioning alone. At least get 99% there. I never pan my mic channels - that tends to lead to phase cancellation (tho if the effect sounds good, so be it - phase cancelation can act like a tone control). If I want a narrower sound, I place my mics correspondingly. If I want wider, again, change mic positions. The one mic setup that really works nicely for making this decision in the mix is Mid-Side (MS), where you can pretty much go from mono to ultra-wide stereo without any issues.

This all takes time, of course. I think it's sdelsolrey here who has thrown out a number like 100 hours on experiments. I suspect that's on the low side :-) My routine for ages was to listen to a reference recording that I like, then record myself playing a bit of the same tune, then listen and try to figure out why my recording didn't sound like the record. Move the mics an inch and repeat. Over and over.... I've kind of settled into what works for me, but I still do this when I start any new major recording project. But the process is always almost entirely mic placement.

But this is all just how I go about it, and I think the sound you are going for is significantly different from mine, so my suggestions may be irrelevant.
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  #84  
Old 05-18-2014, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
My suggestion would be to try to find a sound you like by mic positioning alone. At least get 99% there. I never pan my mic channels - that tends to lead to phase cancellation (tho if the effect sounds good, so be it - phase cancelation can act like a tone control). If I want a narrower sound, I place my mics correspondingly. If I want wider, again, change mic positions. The one mic setup that really works nicely for making this decision in the mix is Mid-Side (MS), where you can pretty much go from mono to ultra-wide stereo without any issues.

This all takes time, of course. I think it's sdelsolrey here who has thrown out a number like 100 hours on experiments. I suspect that's on the low side :-) My routine for ages was to listen to a reference recording that I like, then record myself playing a bit of the same tune, then listen and try to figure out why my recording didn't sound like the record. Move the mics an inch and repeat. Over and over.... I've kind of settled into what works for me, but I still do this when I start any new major recording project. But the process is always almost entirely mic placement.

But this is all just how I go about it, and I think the sound you are going for is significantly different from mine, so my suggestions may be irrelevant.
Both guitar takes sound on top of each other rather then separated in space. What I might try on a double take (each take in stereo) like this is to pan each take just a little - one take 10 to 20 percent right, the other 10 to 20 left so as to separate the apparent location of the guitars but not get too much phase issues from a slight to mono collapse in each take.
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  #85  
Old 05-18-2014, 12:22 AM
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Both guitar takes sound on top of each other rather then separated in space. What I might try on a double take (each take in stereo) like this is to pan each take just a little - one take 10 to 20 percent right, the other 10 to 20 left so as to separate the apparent location of the guitars but not get too much phase issues from a slight to mono collapse in each take.
Oh, I didn't listen to his takes, and forgot that this was all about double tracking. If that's what was meant by panning, ignore my comments. I can't provide any useful suggestions for that.
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  #86  
Old 05-18-2014, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Both guitar takes sound on top of each other rather then separated in space. What I might try on a double take (each take in stereo) like this is to pan each take just a little - one take 10 to 20 percent right, the other 10 to 20 left so as to separate the apparent location of the guitars but not get too much phase issues from a slight to mono collapse in each take.
T
That is almost exactly what I tried/did today and yeah I like it much better.
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  #87  
Old 05-18-2014, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
My suggestion would be to try to find a sound you like by mic positioning alone. At least get 99% there. I never pan my mic channels - that tends to lead to phase cancellation (tho if the effect sounds good, so be it - phase cancelation can act like a tone control). If I want a narrower sound, I place my mics correspondingly. If I want wider, again, change mic positions. The one mic setup that really works nicely for making this decision in the mix is Mid-Side (MS), where you can pretty much go from mono to ultra-wide stereo without any issues.

This all takes time, of course. I think it's sdelsolrey here who has thrown out a number like 100 hours on experiments. I suspect that's on the low side :-) My routine for ages was to listen to a reference recording that I like, then record myself playing a bit of the same tune, then listen and try to figure out why my recording didn't sound like the record. Move the mics an inch and repeat. Over and over.... I've kind of settled into what works for me, but I still do this when I start any new major recording project. But the process is always almost entirely mic placement.

But this is all just how I go about it, and I think the sound you are going for is significantly different from mine, so my suggestions may be irrelevant.
While setting up the mic positions and combinations I had the tracks armed and monitored, messed around some before I hit record record and transport.
All the other stuff was seeing how I could play with it. Yeah I really would like to try m/s side but correct me if I am wrong. doesn't that involve one mic in omni and one in figure eight? If so I need a ribbon or a mutl-pattern LDC that does figure 8, wouldn't I?
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  #88  
Old 05-18-2014, 12:38 AM
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Yes, MS requires 1 figure 8 mic. I was just pointing out that that's a micing approach that works well when you want to play with the stereo image. But I misunderstood - you were talking about panning your double tracked recordings. Different thing, so ignore my comments.
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  #89  
Old 05-18-2014, 05:50 AM
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Yes, MS requires 1 figure 8 mic. I was just pointing out that that's a micing approach that works well when you want to play with the stereo image. But I misunderstood - you were talking about panning your double tracked recordings. Different thing, so ignore my comments.
Oh know please keep them coming. Double tracked guitars will more than likely occur less than 10% of the time(on Acoustic guitar based music).

I first started using that technique tracking Hard Rock stuff. Example a SM57 or two(don't really have success with 57's must be me) or a 57 and a e609) Now I am trying a Heil PR-30 and SM7b combo.)This requires two mono tracks with each set panned usually hard left or right. Sometimes even layer more than 2 tracks panned on each other. However that was going for a specific sound and very tricky. I found as time went by I liked just one main track then add more tracks with usually just 1 or 2 being different riffage fills and stuff. After sifting through some ideas from a year or two ago, or ones coming to me lately I can only see that 10% or less to try double tracking.

When some songs should remain in a rawer form less busy mix there will be fewer acoustic gtr. tracks involved and some with true Stereo with either 2 SDC's or one with a LDC. I can see using just one mic as well. Really want to try M/S though. Have been shopping for a Ribbon or Perhaps a multi pattern LDC.
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  #90  
Old 05-18-2014, 07:44 AM
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I gave them a quick listen and it is remarkable how well the mic you do have sounds pretty good. That probably has to do with the quality of your performance and playing skills. Let me give a listen to them again tomorrow as my ears need rest from the Sessions I had recorded and slightly mixed today
Looking forward to your second opinion.... I got no skills fella

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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
I'd happy to download it and give it a more critical listen and see if there's any advice I can offer. I'd prefer a raw track with absolutely no processing. There's not usually a lot to say about a mono track, most issues people have come up in stereo mic placement, but I'd be glad to see if there's anything I can suggest.
Ok, got a no effects version up and set them all to be DL'ed... I clicked mono mixdown
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