Getting a wider stereo image

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

You can go amazingly low with 24 bits and have no issue. But if you put the mics further away, the guitar level will be reduced relative to room noise and room acoustics. Usually for home recording, we have to mic closer than you would in a professional studio. I usually mic 6-8 inches away. There's some proximity effect, but as long as it sounds good, it doesn't matter.

Interesting how preferences, rooms, and guitars work out. I don't think I have saved any recording I made at less than 12 inches, and most were recorded out at between 16 to 22 inches.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Interesting how preferences, rooms, and guitars work out. I don't think I have saved any recording I made at less than 12 inches, and most were recorded out at between 16 to 22 inches.

I never like the amount of room sound I get at anything more than about a foot. It's all in your room acoustics. I recorded some tracks years ago at Joe Weed's studio. Beautiful place with the whole studio treatment, right down to isolated floating floors. He put a pair of U89's out about 5 feet, and it sounded like they were 2 inches away. But I don't have a half a million $ in my room construction....

[Bob Womack]

It's all a compromise. You either give at one end or the other. You either spend for proper room treatment, and we are talking, as Doug said, thousands of dollars, or you have to adjust your microphone technique to eliminate room sound. In the former case you can work way out with a mic but in the latter you have to pull in the mics and learn to deal with proximity effect through EQ. Frankly, bass tilt-up is not the worst problem in the world if you learn proper EQ techniques or use mics with high-pass filters and learn to take advantage of them.

There was a time when amongst the recording techniques there were a couple that were at absolutely at odds - the California school and the British school. The California school developed a purist reputation where they would spend inordinate amounts of time trying to record without any EQ, crossovers, or processing - it was called the "straight wire" theory: nothing between the mic and recorder except esoteric wire, and make sure you kept the wire straight. Members of the British school giggled that while the California engineers were still scratching their chins and thinking their esoteric thoughts, the British engineers had chosen mic and preamp and spun up a few EQ knobs to create a killer sound.

In my own little world its a hybrid: we've got some killer mics and preamps, I'm in properly designed studio with a killer control room and monitor system, but I'm not afraid to use the EQ and processing as needed. And that has to be in your mind when you attempt to match the quality of a perfect recording by an experienced engineer in perfect room with perfect gear.

Bob

[rick-slo]

Some proximity effect (or maybe it's whoosh from the soundhole - cause you can mike pretty close to the neck without the problem) you can't equalize away very satisfactorily because it gets up into frequencies that you don't want to cut, and even if you do try and cut it back some notes refuse to be demuddified.

[Luke W]

Originally Posted by anton

Yea, i am not hearing each mic hard left and right, at least when I tap on them with my headphones on. It sounds more straight up the middle, is that normal?

Anton

If your using a coincident or near-coincident pair, both mics will be picking up the tapping at very nearly identical levels, thats how something ends up in the centre of the image. Click your fingers and move them left to right a good distance away from the mics, you should then hear what you're expecting.

On another note, tapping mics isn't good

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

You can go amazingly low with 24 bits and have no issue. But if you put the mics further away, the guitar level will be reduced relative to room noise and room acoustics. Usually for home recording, we have to mic closer than you would in a professional studio. I usually mic 6-8 inches away. There's some proximity effect, but as long as it sounds good, it doesn't matter.

I dropped my comment in there because the discussion centered on an overly dark sound.

Originally Posted by anton

How far would you recommend Fran? I find when I get alot farther I cant get a decent enough level going into my DAW. I try to shoot for around -7db.

I don't stress over tracking levels, but generally think in terms of RMS around -16 to -20 dBFS. I hope you're talking peak level, right?

Proximity varies with the mic but it starts at a surprising distance and goes to a higher frequency than might seem obvious. Here's a graph from DPA showing the proximity effect for one of their cardioids:



I tried to find a similar graph for the ADK A6 but the vendor info on that mic is rather minimal, not even a frequency response graph or polar pattern diagram.

I'm usually out around 18 to 24" these days, which means I do all my serious recording around midnight and still have to toss some cuts if a car goes by at the wrong time.

Proximity effect can be addressed with a simple shelving EQ if the source is on axis, so it's not a terrible problem as long as it doesn't cause any overload in the chain during tracking.

Fran

[Doug Young]

I messed around with mic distance a bit last night, realizing I hadn't tried any further back in a while. 18 inches actually sounds fine in my room, tho - related to this thread - it made for a less wide stereo image than being up closer to the mics. I didn't move the mics, just backed up. I'll have to try some more variations, wider mic placement, etc - there's always more mic arrangements to try!

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by Luke W

If your using a coincident or near-coincident pair, both mics will be picking up the tapping at very nearly identical levels, thats how something ends up in the centre of the image. Click your fingers and move them left to right a good distance away from the mics, you should then hear what you're expecting.

On another note, tapping mics isn't good

Scratching the grill is acceptable, though.

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

Proximity varies with the mic but it starts at a surprising distance and goes to a higher frequency than might seem obvious. Here's a graph from DPA showing the proximity effect for one of their cardioids:

Proximity effect can be addressed with a simple shelving EQ if the source is on axis, so it's not a terrible problem as long as it doesn't cause any overload in the chain during tracking.

Fran

To match this one, it looks like a low-end roll-off filter would be better. You could start with a Butterworth (-6db per octave) filter but you may end up with a steeper curve if you are a foot away, from the looks of it.

Originally Posted by RRuskin

Scratching the grill is acceptable, though.

That's what I do.

Bob

[Ty Ford]

BTW, that lack of sparkle you were hearing early on may well have been due to the HF phase cancellation due to non-coincident mics when played back in mono because of your mixer settings.

Go back and check for HF again.

Tired strings, sure; they'll also contribute, but the HF go away quickly when monoed down.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[anton]

Thanks Ty, Ill go back and check for that.

Learning alot here guys, thanks for all your replies. Not sure what to do next, it would be nice to cut down on the computer noise. My iMac is due for a replacement soon, maybe Ill get a MacBook pro or something that I can easily have outside the room. Im also interested in what I will sound like recording with a different guitar.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by anton

Thanks Ty, Ill go back and check for that.

Learning alot here guys, thanks for all your replies. Not sure what to do next, it would be nice to cut down on the computer noise. My iMac is due for a replacement soon, maybe Ill get a MacBook pro or something that I can easily have outside the room. Im also interested in what I will sound like recording with a different guitar.

If you can use the same process, my solution to PC noise (for totally noise-free recording) is shown on my "Simple Homestyle Recording" page:

http://www.bluestemstrings.com/pageRecording1.html

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by anton

Thanks for the thoughts guys. Yea, that low end rumble might be a truck going by, and the machine noise is probably my computer. The fan must have kicked on. I need to get a pair of isolation headphones so i can hear these things better.

As far the recordings, I guess I like them both, though now i am leaning towards the Rodes more. The ADK's sound nice and warm, but I am also hearing a sort of muddiness to the sound. The Rodes have a clearness and crispness that is appealing. That makes me want to try some other SDC's, like the Octavas.

But I also already own the ADK's, and probably should not be dumping more money into mics. So perhaps I should just take what i have and actually starting recording some music.

Anton

Having heard all of the above, I think you should try a pair of Schoeps cmc641.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[anton]

Man, i wish i could. Out of my price range.

[philjs]

Originally Posted by anton

Not sure what to do next, it would be nice to cut down on the computer noise. My iMac is due for a replacement soon, maybe Ill get a MacBook pro or something that I can easily have outside the room. Im also interested in what I will sound like recording with a different guitar.

Do you have an iPad and a home network, Anton? You might try V-Control Pro, a remote control app for your iPad that uses your home network to wirelessly control your DAW so you can move away from your computer...

Phil