does anybody NOT like an all koa guitar for steel string acoustic?

[royd]

gopherbroke, are you looking for folk to talk you out of your purchase or into it?

I've only played a few all koa guitars. One of the very best guitars I've ever played was a 1920's Martin 00-17K (I think that was the model... it has been a long time and it may have been an 0). I still think about that guitar some 20 years after I played it and wish I had purchased it. It was just stellar. I have never played a new all koa guitar that came close to it and very few other guitars of any woods that did. I've been unimpressed by the couple of koa-topped Taylors I've played. If I was going to have one built, I think the advice of using a builder who is very familiar with koa would be wise. I'd go with James Goodall or maybe Santa Cruz.

For other hardwood topped guitars, I have been very impressed with the 15 series Martins with mahogany or sapele tops and think they are among the best guitars available at their price point.

[rockabilly69]

I just saw this thread, and thought I would add to it. I have had many good acoustic guitars, but I personally love two guitars for recording and neither exhibit the qualities mentioned here, as in brittle or thin. I love spruce topped guitars but many times they compress where I don't want them to. I have noticed that these hardwood guitars sound best on smaller guitars. I also must sa I'm blues fingerstylist for most of my material and maybe these guitars lend themselves to this type of tone. But I have recorded many flatpick aparts on these guitars.

The first is a 00015S Martin. This guitar, while leaving Martin with some bad setup has constantly been picked over many spruce topped guitars for recording.
The lowend of this guitar is tight and very easy to control, with a very balanced high end that never gets icepicky!



Here's clip of this guitar...
http://www.soundclick.com/player/sin...&q=hi&newref=1

The second is an Australian Blackwood Parkwood LE061 which I used as my stage guitar for too many gigs to count. Also a very balanced sounding guitar that works great with both magnetic soundhole pickups and the K&K mini under the bridge.



Here's a clip of one of these, I have two...
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page...howPlayer=true

[Kevin A]

does anybody NOT like an all koa guitar for steel string acoustic?

Yes.

........

[RiloKiley]

I think Darrell Scott gets some great tones out of his all Koa Taylor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TXrO...eature=related

[thomas1]

Yes, Darrell Scott certainly gets a great sound out of his all koa Taylor. Listen to his live YouTube of American Tune from Folk Alley - tremendous - he OWNS that song.

If you know that the guitar sound you are looking for is something that can be had from an all koa guitar I would talk to two custom luthiers who are known for their love for and abilities with koa - Charlie Hoffman and Steve Grimes. They have both worked extensively with koa for many years and have a love for both the sound and look of this wood. They are also both reasonably priced for custom build luthiers with great reputations. Check out their websites, give them a call, or drop them an e-mail.

Hope you end up with a guitar that fulfills your sonic and aesthetic desires.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by RiloKiley

I think Darrell Scott gets some great tones out of his all Koa Taylor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TXrO...eature=related

Great song, great vocal tone, and most importantly, great guitar tone. Thanks for posting this!

[SteveS]

Originally Posted by gopherbroke

I am considering ordering an all koa down the road.........

What does down the road mean? Are you still looking?
You have not posted here in 7 months. I hope you are OK!

[laocmo]

The most beautiful guitar I had ever seen to date was a fancy, all Koa and Abalone, Guild dreadnought hanging on the wall of a local music store about 10 years ago. It was also probably the deadest dreadnought I had ever played. Made one want to cry that so much time and money went into that guitar and so little sound came out of it. It would have made great neck candy for some good looking singer babe, but the sound was far inferior to the humble Martin D-15 hanging next to it. I would never buy one without first trying it on for sound.

[alohachris]

Aloha Friends,

I actually prefer Koa acoustic guitars for almost every application except Bluegrass styles. I agree that the right spruce or cedar top matched to a DENSE koa back & sides can often beat the tone of an all Koa guitar. But not always. And not usually. It's all in choosing the right Koa for density & having enough Koa around to choose from.

I think that a lot of individual Mainland luthiers have actually built precious few Koa guitars relative to other species, & have often treated Koa like it is rosewood or mahogany in terms of tolerances & matching to the right top. Koa cannot be treated uniformly because of how much its density varies from piece to piece - even in a flitch. So it takes a lot of experience working in Koa to maximize it, & again, lots of denser grades to choose from.

Never has Koa been scarcer than it is today - for luthiers everywhere. There is a lot less instrument-grade dense koa in the world than there is gold, that's for sure.

Many judge the performance of Koa guitars based on those made by Martin & other mass producers. Again, factory instrument production compromises are the very conditions that ensure that many koa guitars will NOT be maximized or the right densities chosen. Martin made a lot of mistakes with their Koa reissues, beginning in 1979 when Chris Martin came out here asking us guys for ideas about his plans for reissues - and then heavily promoted dreadnaughts like the D-37 made from Koa. Remember the hit & mostly miss sound of many of those all-koa guitars? So that's where a lot of the skepticism stems from in my generation, IMO.

Therefore, it may be a good choice for the OP, interested in an all-koa guitar, to check out Hawaii's luthiers - many of whom ONLY work with koa & not only for the occasional visual showpiece that so many Mainland guys do, IMO. (Koa sure is a pretty wood, huh?) Certainly, we DO have access out here to better instrument-grade Koa than do most Mainland luthiers.

David Gomes, Rollo Scheurerbrand, Mickey Sussman, Sam & Casey Kamaka, Steven Grimes, Noah Bonk, Bob Gleason, Donn Eisele & other old koa pro luthiers have the inside scoop on Koa & koa guitars - because they use it primarily, not as a break from rosewood & mahoganies.

Here's some eye & ear candy from Oahu's Rollo. Check out his koa gallery:

http://www.koaguitars.com/index.html

I've made over 200 Koa guitars, many of the all-Koa variety, mainly as a hobbyist. I had a Koa mill on the Big Island. I continue to sell Koa today through my business (rarely do we see instrument-grade Koa come in here anymore).

I prefer to combine Koa with a nice even-grained top from my large personal stash of 1930's real German white spruce I scored in the early 70's from a German logging family dedicated to providing tonewoods to Cremonese violinmakers for centuries. Dense Englemann Spruce (another wood difficult to select) works very well with koa's as well to create a variety of types of guitars.

In terms of all-Koa guitars, I prefer it in 0, 00 & 000 12-fret sized guitars, with added depth to help with bass freq's.

The inside scoop on Koa topwoods is selecting the densest pieces - which often do NOT often show the "choke-curl" or intense figuring of the often less dense "show tops" used for "advertising guitars" found in the back of AGM.

My primary gigging guitar of the last 35 years, has been a self-made, all-Koa, 00-size, twelve fretter with 4-1/2" sides, 2" at the nut, 2-3/8" at the saddle. It is also my favorite recording guitar for solo fingerstyle. It has exceptional clarity, surprising projection, a very fast response on individual notes & balance, PLUS the warmth that a few claim they find lacking in koa guitars.

Check out Island luthiers for Koa guitars, friends. Eh, we might surprise ya.

A Hui Hou!

alohachris

[rgregg48]

Originally Posted by Tim McKnight

Count me among those who dislike the tone of hardwood tops be it Koa or Mahogany. The tone just doesn't excite me... at all.

Same for me,, i never liked hardwood tops...
Ive never been impressed with koa back and sides...
but im sure thats my ears worth...must be acceptions
to the rule,, but im yet to hear them so far..

Rick

[Richard Mott]

AlohaChris--You said that the secret in building an all-Koa instrument is picking the DENSEST wood for the top. I'd heard the opposite--that the light, stiff tops are best (kind of the theory behind spruce and other light, stiff woods being used for tops in other guitars) and to save the fancy curly denser stuff for back and sides. That made sense to me, but you seem to be speaking from greater experience. Any idea what the theory is behind denser Koa making the better sounding top? Thx for any insights! --Richard

[mikealpine]

Originally Posted by Kevin A

Yes.

........

As pretty as they are, I haven't found an all Koa that I really loved. As with all guitars, I'm sure there's the rule and then the exception, though. I wouldn't rule it out, but that is one guitar I would never buy without some serious play time or a generous return policy.

[SteveS]

Originally Posted by Richard Mott

AlohaChris--You said that the secret in building an all-Koa instrument is picking the DENSEST wood for the top. I'd heard the opposite--.......

Being dense is something I know a lot about.
For koa, density is only part of the puzzle. It should be treated like any other top - I look for the most strength to weight ratio in the top. That will not very often be the most dense. The reason for this is that I want to make the top as light as possible so that it can be moved more easily by the strings. If the strength to weigh ratio is high, I can make a lighter weight top.

Originally Posted by mikealpine

As pretty as they are, I haven't found an all Koa that I really loved. ........ I would never buy without some serious play time or a generous return policy.

There is a generous return policy on this one.

[mikealpine]

Hi Steve,

Wish I was in the market!! Beautiful guitar, though. I should clarify...I think Koa guitars are among the prettiest, but (other than Steve's ) I was never that impressed. My experience is limited to Taylor all-Koa guitars though, and in all seriousness, a handbuilt Saville is bound to be well above that.

Thanks,
Mike

[Kevin A]

Originally Posted by mikealpine

As pretty as they are, I haven't found an all Koa that I really loved. As with all guitars, I'm sure there's the rule and then the exception, though. I wouldn't rule it out, but that is one guitar I would never buy without some serious play time or a generous return policy.

Ditto. Hence my response to the OP's question about anyone NOT liking all-koas. Too many potential pitfalls.