Why Carbon Fiber over Wood ?

[ac]

Wow! 1998 doesn't pre-date Rainsong but I think it means they were the second 100% carbon builder--at least for a short while. Not sure who was second, CA or Blackbird--or maybe Emerald was actually before CA.

Just curious if anyone knows the order of when each of these 5 builders began? Who was 1st, 2nd, etc.? Yes, it has no real meaning per se--but I'm curious for the historical record of how things happened.

[Doubleneck]

Originally Posted by ac

Wow! 1998 doesn't pre-date Rainsong but I think it means they were the second 100% carbon builder--at least for a short while. Not sure who was second, CA or Blackbird--or maybe Emerald was actually before CA.

Just curious if anyone knows the order of when each of these 5 builders began? Who was 1st, 2nd, etc.? Yes, it has no real meaning per se--but I'm curious for the historical record of how things happened.

Great question, what ever the answer we all owe a lot to Ovation, the true pioneer. Used carbon fiber in there Adamas soundboards way back there. Without them I doubt I would be into CF guitars like I have. Look below, they were my stepping stone.

[Monk of Funk]

i'd like to try some of these. not sure if they're there yet, but i would imagine that this material would allow for methods in manufacture that could give a better sound and durability than wood guitars.

if i'm not mistaken there are many ways to make carbon, how you orient the sheets makes a difference with how strong it is, so i would assume the sound as well.

idk, there seems to be more flexibility in the manufacture process, but maybe that material just will never have as nice a sound as you can get with wood.

idk, but i'd really like to try some of these and watch them as the technology progresses.

i do find the idea less beautiful though. a wood guitar is a nice idea. nice smell. nice feel, nice look. it's like warm and cozy, and carbon fiber is like cold and just business with no soul.

however, i do find that technology lets you make better sound, so, although it might be less beautiful of an idea, better sound and feel wins imo.

i find the same with taylor guitars. more of a manufacture process, more mechanical and programmed and kind of machined process, whereas martin is more hand made and classic manufacture process, and i much prefer taylor.

but i would imagine martins have a larger variety of quality between specific guitars than taylor due to that manufacture process difference.

[him]

I have to say, for myself as a normally low to mid (sub-$1000) guitar person...

When I bought my (used) CA GXi, it pretty much orphaned all of my other acoustics. I gave one away, another hasn't left its case for the 6+ months I've owned the CA. It is far and away my go-to guitar for playing around with at home, or taking out to jams.

Why?

1) I like the sound ... I won't say it's "better", but I like it
2) Tuning stability ... this thing comes closer to staying in tune (it just needs a touch-up after the strings warm up) than any guitar I've ever owned, which means it's great for a quick song break
3) It's a beater that isn't a beater...sounds good (I like the sound) but I'm not too worried about travel harm, leaving it in my trunk, or the fact that it spends most of its time on a wall hook
4) I take perverse satisfaction in describing it as "some sort of plastic toy guitar" or a "tupperware special" when people ask what I play/I'm playing

Honestly, my only regret is that I bought a solid wood guitar first.

[ulyssies]

Hi what is a wes lambe 8 str?

[Matt McGriff]

Originally Posted by him

1) I like the sound ... I won't say it's "better", but I like it
2) Tuning stability ... this thing comes closer to staying in tune (it just needs a touch-up after the strings warm up) than any guitar I've ever owned, which means it's great for a quick song break
3) It's a beater that isn't a beater...sounds good (I like the sound) but I'm not too worried about travel harm, leaving it in my trunk, or the fact that it spends most of its time on a wall hook
4) I take perverse satisfaction in describing it as "some sort of plastic toy guitar" or a "tupperware special" when people ask what I play/I'm playing

Honestly, my only regret is that I bought a solid wood guitar first.

This is pretty much how I feel. My first acoustic was an Ovation so I've always appreciated alternative materials in guitar building. I have also owned (way too) many really nice wood guitars that I absolutely loved but was paranoid to play out because of the risk of dings etc. I play a lot in a church orchestra and the stage is very crowded. I recently owned a beautiful sunburst 810 that I would never bring into that environment. Sold it.

My Rainsong is the ultimate beater. Not because I don't care what happens to it, but because it can take getting nailed by a trombone without a ding. And the sound is as high quality as many $2k wood guitars I have owned. Plus, it is as light as a feather, and I can leave it in my car for an hour or two in the south Florida heat without worry. I love wood guitars as much as the next gasaholic, but for a gigging guitar, a CF guitar really can't be beat. And I love all of the "what kind of guitar is that?" comments...

[Doubleneck]

Matt, totally agree, I mainly play in praise band at church and I was always worried about my guitar either at church on the stand or in the car if we went for lunch after service. Carbon is a bit liberating and I really didn't give up a thing sound wise. What model Rainsong do you use?

[Matt McGriff]

I use a hybrid studio dread. The only Rainsong I've ever played. Ordered it sound unheard from Ted at LA GS. I had owned a CA COT about 8 years ago and really enjoyed it except for the Baggs electronics. If I ever get rid of my Rainsong, it will only be to fund a higher end Rainsong. I have had probably 5-7 wood guitars come and go, including my 810e and 3 GS Minis (I'm fickle) but I can't imagine letting the Rainsong go. I see it as a welcome necessity.

[Inked]

Why? For me, because they sound as good if not better than wood and you never have to worry about damage from the weather. It's awesome being able to walk from your house with the a/c cranked out into the yard where it's 100 degrees with your guitar and never think twice. Wanna leave it in your trunk? Do it. No worries. That's why.

[CobaltBlue]

The reason I haven't yet purchased a CF is that I will have to do so without getting to try one first. Because I cannot try one first, I'm trying to absorb as many user comments as possible, and what is making me hesitate are comments about how much "my guitar sounds just like wood."

I don't want it to sound just like wood. I want it to have its own tonal characteristics. To me, marketing a two thousand dollar CF by claiming that it sounds exactly like wood seems a little bit like if Henry Ford would have marketed his Model T by claiming that driving it would feel just like one was sitting on the back of a horse.

So, tell me, does a CF sound "just like wood," or is it its own special breed of instrument, one that delivers a palette of tonal colors that is at least slightly different than the guitars that preceded it?

[ac]

Comments from others who play and use both wood and carbon will be useful. CF guitars don't fall into an "either" "or" category anymore. The spectrum of sound spans the unique sound associated with CF all the way to that indistinguishable from expensive wood guitars. To choose without playing, you'll have to do your best research and then decide to go for it--or not. That's what I had to do also.

But there are also direct comparison wood/CF videos using roughly equivalent sized wood and carbon guitars. I do not recall now exactly who did these videos but maybe they will point you in the right direction here. If not, ask this same question over at the MacNichol forum and I'm sure people will remember where to find the few comparison videos out there. I found those to be partially helpful as well. There are some long-time posters over there who generally never visit the AGF forum.

There are not enough of those videos to completely make a decision with--and it's always a bit apples and oranges--even with two different CF guitars, but added to the comments you will receive, hopefully it will help give you the confidence needed to purchase. You can also purchase used CF--but if you want specific options that are unique--you might have to wait a long time to find it used. Emerald was able to add the options I wanted in the build process--so I have in my hands exactly what I wanted.

I read and listened a long time before I purchased my X7-OS as where I live made it impossible to lay hands on any carbon guitar. There's more videos and comments out there now so it's becoming easier now.

There are a few CF guitars that apparently would pass for high quality wood in a blind test, but normally CF is acoustic but there is a uniqueness to the sound--one that I now have come to prefer in general. I still love the sound of some wood guitars--but just won't ever again give up the absolute mental and physical freedom that comes with CF.

My last visit to a GC store was last year and it was the first time in roughly 8 years I'd been inside. I went and played the two Rainsongs they had in stock, and then browsed the Accessories section, then left. Tons of Martins, Taylors and such there--but didn't touch them--no interest at all.

[jonfields45]

I think if you can appreciate the tone of Adirondack over Sitka, hide glue over alpha, the lack of a tongue brace, etc., then CFRP is never going to cut it. But I think if you have an open mind, CFRP has many outstanding tonal characteristics of its own and is so practical it makes playing your guitar (a lot) a joy (leave it out, leave in the trunk, play it in the sun light, let a stranger try it out, get rid of your case and use a light weight gig bag, etc.). CFRP looks terrible to me compared to wood, but apparently I got over that and sold my Martins. Jon

[jgillard]

I purchased my Rainsong SGA-FLE without ever having laid hands on one. I trusted by the specs & reviews that I would like it. I was right. Very right. I absolutely love this thing from a tone, looks & feel perspective. I love the neck profile and dimensions. (Love the short scale, love the 12 fret join) It's also an incredibly responsive & warm guitar. It fits me like a glove.

Does it sound like wood? Hmm. This is kind of an odd question. Different wood itself can sound so different from another. What I will say is that it provides a very clear, rich, (&warm - which most CF guitars are attributed not to be) musical tone. If I listened to someone playing this guitar without seeing it, I would not know it was not built out of wood. It also has incredible sustain. The notes can just linger on and on. It is also a very loud guitar. It does not have a volume problem that is for sure.

What you need to go by is "Does it sound good?" If Yes, then it "IS GOOD".

Notice in all of the above, I never said anything about how solid, durable, humidity proof & light the guitar is. (It also looks really good too) My other guitar is a gs mini mahogany (which has not gotten much play since the rainsong arrived) The GS mini weighs more then my rainsong. (And it's not a heavy guitar)

I've had many guitars pass through my hands in the past couple of years. Always searching for the perfect combination of tone and comfort. I've found that in my rainsong. I'm more of a 1 guitar type guy and I feel this guitar can let me accomplish my musical goals! It's a very freeing experience. I'm not worrying about the guitar and am enjoying making music with it.

[mchalebk]

Originally Posted by CobaltBlue

The reason I haven't yet purchased a CF is that I will have to do so without getting to try one first. Because I cannot try one first, I'm trying to absorb as many user comments as possible, and what is making me hesitate are comments about how much "my guitar sounds just like wood."

I don't want it to sound just like wood. I want it to have its own tonal characteristics.

CA is really the only CF guitar maker that actually tries to make their guitars sound as if they are made of wood. CA uses braces, even though they are structurally unnecessary, to give a more traditional sound to their guitars.

Originally Posted by CobaltBlue

To me, marketing a two thousand dollar CF by claiming that it sounds exactly like wood seems a little bit like if Henry Ford would have marketed his Model T by claiming that driving it would feel just like one was sitting on the back of a horse.

I would disagree with this analogy. The automobile was a replacement for the horse and buggy, not a different way of manufacturing a carriage. It was a completely new product, not a simple improvement. A better analogy would be building a fiberglass boat that is designed to handle similarly to a wood boat. You want it to function the same, just require less maintenance.

CF is a different construction material, but the end product works the same way. It makes a ton of sense to design a guitar that sounds like people are used to hearing. When Rainsong first started producing guitars, there were a lot of people complaining that they didn’t sound like a guitar.

That being said, if you don’t care if a guitar sounds like wood, you have lots of choices. Rainsong, Emerald and Blackbird all have multiple models to choose from. None of these makers try particularly hard to make their guitars sound like wood. If you don’t have access to any stores that carry CF guitars, you might consider signing up for one of the Road Trips that MacNichol Guitars sponsors. Here’s a link to the MacNichol forums, where you can find out more:

http://macnichol.com/forums/carbon-f...-fiber-guitars

[CobaltBlue]

^^Truly excellent responses. Thank you.