How best to avoid mic bleed

[RyanR]

Hi guys. I've been recording myself with two mics. A Sure SM58 for vocals, and then an AKG C214 for the guitar. I put the AKG about 9 inches away from the guitar pointed at the 14th fret.

This all works but I find the AKG (which is a pretty sensitive mic) is picking up a ton of the vocals. Do you have any tips on how to mic the guitar without getting so much vocal? I have a Sure SM57 but I understand that is not so good for acoustic guitar. Any other suggestions?

[CASD57]

Not sure if the AKG is a condenser..but if it is... too sensitive

I was using an MXL V250 on vocal and Sm57 on the guitar and it was causing my Mic mechanic to go crazy.
I was in the seated position but really was does it matter since I'm the same distance from my mouth the guitar sitting or standing

It was the condenser mic, once I went to a dynamic for vocals it was fine

[GmanJeff]

Record guitar first on a separate track, and then record your vocal while listening to the recorded guitar through closed back headphones so the guitar's sound doesn't bleed from the headphones onto your dedicated vocal track.

[RyanR]

Originally Posted by CASD57

Not sure if the AKG is a condenser..but if it is... too sensitive

I was using an MXL V250 on vocal and Sm57 on the guitar and it was causing my Mic mechanic to go crazy.
I was in the seated position but really was does it matter since I'm the same distance from my mouth the guitar sitting or standing

It was the condenser mic, once I went to a dynamic for vocals it was fine

I'm using a dynamic for the vocals and that is fine.

The AKG is a condenser and I'm using for the guitar. I agree with you is that it is too sensitive.

I think I need to try a different mic on the guitar. Have you had good success with the SM57? I always heard recording guitar with an SM57 was no good but maybe I should give it a try. Is there a guitar mic you use that you really like?

[RyanR]

Originally Posted by GmanJeff

Record guitar first on a separate track, and then record your vocal while listening to the recorded guitar through closed back headphones so the guitar's sound doesn't bleed from the headphones onto your dedicated vocal track.

Gman I do record tracks separately at times and that works great. But some times I just want to play it like it is live, so I need 2 mics.

Most of my guitars have pickups and in the past I would just use that. Obviously eliminates the bleed issue. But I've just started to experiment with recording (acoustic) guitar through a mic and am finding the sound is so much better than any pickup. So I want to explore that some more.

[James May]

The way the pros do it is as follows:

Use two mics, each set to a figure 8 pickup pattern. (FYI - Figure 8 has deep nulls at the sides, and picks up equally well front or back.)

Angle the vocal mic up a bit more than you normally would such that the side null at 90 degrees is pointing at the guitar. The mic won't be at 0 degrees to your mouth, you'll be skimming a little but that's okay.

Similarly, but in the opposite direction, angle the guitar mic down a bit more than you would normally do such that the 90 degree null is pointing straight at your lips.

Voila, you will reduce guitar bleed in the vocal mic (and vice versa) enough that you will have a lot of latitude in adjusting the balance and processing of each separately later, in the mix. You MAY even get enough isolation that you could punch in fixes later for guitar or vocal independently without anyone the wiser.

Caveat: You'll hear more of the room sound using figure 8 patterns due to the equally sensitive rear pickup. You'll need a reasonably well treated room otherwise you'll hear the room and it might not be pretty. Perhaps this is why the pros use this technique as a matter of course, and home recordists not so much.

[Brent Hahn]

When it's just guitar and voice, the "rules" about mic placement are pretty bendable. You want to get the guitar mic in a spot where the mic hears less guitar and more voice than it's hearing now. Which is to say, closer in general and closer to the sound hole specifically. And you want to point it as away from your face as is practical. Hard to say for sure since I'm not where your face and the guitar are, but I'd probably bring the mic in to about 4" from the guitar, looking down at a 45º angle just above and slightly neckward of the sound hole. This will, of course, be a "thicker" sound than the carved-in-stone 9" from the 14th. But if it's just your voice and the guitar filling up the speakers, that's probably good.

The 45º thing is for two reasons. Besides the obvious reason, since the guitar top is a hard reflective surface, you want to avoid an angle of reflection that bounces your voice (180º out of phase, no less) into the guitar mic. This is something I learned the hard way when, on a jazz session, I discovered I had more trumpet than upright bass in my bass mic.

Late add -- James May, above, is right about the 2 fig. 8 mics and all that. But sometimes pros have to work with what's available. Being one, I'm commenting based on what you've actually got.

And my tastes in these areas run contrary to those of a lot of people here; please bear that in mind.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by RyanR

I'm using a dynamic for the vocals and that is fine.

The AKG is a condenser and I'm using for the guitar. I agree with you is that it is too sensitive.

I think I need to try a different mic on the guitar. Have you had good success with the SM57? I always heard recording guitar with an SM57 was no good but maybe I should give it a try. Is there a guitar mic you use that you really like?

Hi Ryan

The AKG is the better mic (reproduces singing and playing more naturally) and the SM-57 is not sensitive enough (nor does it reproduce vocals as accurately as a condenser mic would).

A pair of condenser mics with figure 8 polar pattern capability can be situated so the guitar is in the 'null' of the vocal mic and vice versa, better isolating the vocal from the guitar (useful for people who cannot track the guitar and then add vocals on a subsequent recording).

If they can be tracked separately, the recording will be cleaner.

That might be a discussion better suited for the RECORD section of the forum (as would your original question).

[RyanR]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Ryan

The AKG is the better mic (reproduces singing and playing more naturally) and the SM-57 is not sensitive enough (nor does it reproduce vocals as accurately as a condenser mic would).

A pair of condenser mics with figure 8 polar pattern capability can be situated so the guitar is in the 'null' of the vocal mic and vice versa, better isolating the vocal from the guitar (useful for people who cannot track the guitar and then add vocals on a subsequent recording).

If they can be tracked separately, the recording will be cleaner.

That might be a discussion better suited for the RECORD section of the forum (as would your original question).

Did not even notice there was a record section of the forum. I’m kind of new.

You are right...this would have been better to post there. But thanks for your answers anyway!

I do wish there was a mic that is directional and near like an sm57 but with better fidelity like a condenser. Oh well, will need to experiment with what I have. I also have a cheaper AKG, a perception 120. That might be a good compromise. I do like the idea of breaking the 14th fret at 9” “rule”.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by RyanR

Did not even notice there was a record section of the forum. I’m kind of new.

You are right...this would have been better to post there. But thanks for your answers anyway!

I do wish there was a mic that is directional and near like an sm57 but with better fidelity like a condenser. Oh well, will need to experiment with what I have. I also have a cheaper AKG, a perception 120. That might be a good compromise. I do like the idea of breaking the 14th fret at 9” “rule”.

Hi Ryan

I saw your post and jumped in with an answer before reading all the posts, where James May described the same figure 8 arrangement as I (he deserves the credit). It's a great technique.

When I play live, I prefer to sing through an SM-58, but in studio for recording I want everything to sound more like it really is, so I default back to my large diaphragm mics.

If you open your original post, and click the little red triangle box at the upper right hand corner, it will open a window to type in, and you can request that a moderator move your post to the Recording section. They are good at getting that done painlessly.

[Doug Young]

Here’s a demo from Fran Guidry of the figure 8 technique:

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...figure-8-mics/

For better results, id recommend recording each separately. If you need to, you can record a scratch track first, doing both at once. Then replace each part with overdubs.

[RyanR]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Here’s a demo from Fran Guidry of the figure 8 technique:

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...figure-8-mics/

For better results, id recommend recording each separately. If you need to, you can record a scratch track first, doing both at once. Then replace each part with overdubs.

I watched this. Interesting. It seems to me you could do this with one figure 8 mic for guitar and then a dynamic mic for vocals.

Also, while I do not have a treated recording space, I do have an audio shield I use with vocals. If I put this on the stand with a figure 8 mic it might eliminate any reflecting sound from the back of the mic. So you would have two directional sources that have strong side rejection. I may give this a go.

Oh...I requested this thread get moved to the record forum.

[RyanR]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Here’s a demo from Fran Guidry of the figure 8 technique:

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...figure-8-mics/

For better results, id recommend recording each separately. If you need to, you can record a scratch track first, doing both at once. Then replace each part with overdubs.

Also, that is a good idea about the scratch track then overdubbing. Have not tried that.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by RyanR

... while I do not have a treated recording space...

This matters, especially if the ambience is pretty live. You might be better off treating the room and sticking with the mics you have now (while making that one adjustment I mentioned earlier). Fig. 8 mics in a smallish reflective room could easily do you more harm than good.

[KevWind]

In your situation and with the equipment you have

#1 yes over dubbing will eliminate the issue, but as you say if want to experiment with the "all in one shot technique", thats not the answer

#2 so if it were me I would try more mic position options to get more separation. One position might be the AKG out from the just below bottom of the bridge and angled slightly down and toward the back of the guitar and away from your mouth.and perhaps even consider positioning the AKG horizontal as opposed to vertical so as to be able to roll it downward slightly placing your mouth even more off axis
OR what about :
#3.Since I don't care for care for the sound of a 57 on vocal or acoustic guitar, and until such time as you get a new mic
If it were me I would experiment with the traditional single mic technique and try just using only the AKG. Placed about 12 to 14 inches out and between the top waist of the guitar and your mouth height wise, exact specific height placement dependent on your specific vocal and guitar playing volume levels relationship.