Microphone youtube video

[rick-slo]

I think this is a pretty good mike video with some good advice given.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GxrRvzD1Yg

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

I think this is a pretty good mike video with some good advice given.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GxrRvzD1Yg

Hey Rick,
That was very well done!

It really drives home the point about price vs results not being a predictable thing.

I was glad to see the Shure KSM-141 up there, as it was one of the 2 mics we used on my new CD.

HE
It Ain't Necessarily So: http://howardemerson.com/music2.html

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Hey Rick,
That was very well done!

It really drives home the point about price vs results not being a predictable thing.

I was glad to see the Shure KSM-141 up there, as it was one of the 2 mics we used on my new CD.

HE
It Ain't Necessarily So: http://howardemerson.com/music2.html

I ordered a Shure KSM-141 for a try out. I am interested in trying the omni pattern. I would guess the cardioid pattern was used on your great sounding CD.

[Scott Whigham]

Nice. I bought his mixing series earlier this year - really good instructor. I also picked up his Pro Tools series and again - absolutely worth the price.

I've owned the 414, own the 57, and to me there's just something weird going on with this video. In my experience recording guitar w/ both, they just sound nothing alike yet here they are very very close. To me, the 414 has a tendency to be really bright and you have to work to avoid brittleness or brashness. Where is that brightness though in this video? It sounds almost muffled-like, particularly in the mids, and that's just not like a 414 at all. Sure, it's "fuller" as he states but I'm just not really sure that using one mic placement to compare three types of mics is all that "revealing".

Those of you who have experience with the 414, was that what you expected to hear? It's been over a year since I've owned or recorded with one so maybe my memory is causing me to have romantic memories of the 414 rather than honesty haha.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Scott Whigham

Nice. I bought his mixing series earlier this year - really good instructor. I also picked up his Pro Tools series and again - absolutely worth the price.

I've owned the 414, own the 57, and to me there's just something weird going on with this video. In my experience recording guitar w/ both, they just sound nothing alike yet here they are very very close. To me, the 414 has a tendency to be really bright and you have to work to avoid brittleness or brashness. Where is that brightness though in this video? It sounds almost muffled-like, particularly in the mids, and that's just not like a 414 at all. Sure, it's "fuller" as he states but I'm just not really sure that using one mic placement to compare three types of mics is all that "revealing".

Those of you who have experience with the 414, was that what you expected to hear? It's been over a year since I've owned or recorded with one so maybe my memory is causing me to have romantic memories of the 414 rather than honesty haha.

Mikes sound different in different environment, with different gear and instruments. Take sound clips with a grain of salt.

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

I ordered a Shure KSM-141 for a try out. I am interested in trying the omni pattern. I would guess the cardioid pattern was used on your great sounding CD.

Rick,
I have no idea what setting Fred had it set on, except to say that it was pointed at the butt end of the guitar face not much more than 12" away.

The other mic was in front of the 4-5th fret not more 8" away, and angled a little bit toward the body.

That was the Neumann U-87.

When I had Fred isolate the Shure, it did not sound good at all, but in context/combination with the Neumann.........The proof is in the pudding.

That's the only thing that counts, and the engineer doing the mic shoot out made that pretty clear!

HE
It Ain't Necessarily So: http://howardemerson.com/music2.html

[Doug Young]

Nice video, and I think he makes the point well (which I've tried to make many times, usually failing :-) that there's no best mic, and that even a budget mic can do a very acceptable job. To my ears, the SM57 sounds the "worst" here, but the difference in levels is enough that it made me suspicious that I wasn't being biased by that. Sure enough, the KSM is about 3/4 DB louder than the 414, which will tend to make it sound "better", and the SM57 is 3/4 DB softer than the 414, and about 1.5 db softer than the KSM, which it immediately follows. Doesn't seem like much, but even .1 db is enough for our ears to perceive louder as better, and to change the EQ curve we hear.

Looking at the waveforms of these samples is interesting tho, and partially shows how hard it is to make levels actually be perceptually the same. The 414 has a lot less difference between the percussive peaks and the "body" of the guitar sound, the SM57 has a more exaggerated difference, which isn't what I'd expect -I'd think the SM57 would have poorer response to transients. To put it a different way, if I match the volume of the peaks of these two tracks, the average volume of the 414 is higher than the average volume of the SM57. It appears these are different performances - they're not even the same length - so this may all just be due to differences in how the player played, and less due to the mics, which also makes it hard to read much into the comparison, other than that if you heard any one of these alone, you'd probably be happy.

[Howard Emerson]

Doug sez "Nice video, and I think he makes the point well (which I've tried to make many times, usually failing :-)"

That's because you don't use a larger font with the caps lock on!

Seriously, though............Your message comes through loud and clear, but I believe people like to spend more money because they intrinsically feel that more expensive means better...........If they'd work on the product more than the media.........

It may amuse you to know that the only vocal I did on my new CD (JJ Cale's Crazy Mama), I used the U-87 for the vocal.

After listening to the playback a few times, I told Fred "My voice tone is not up to the quality of that mic. Put it through that digital thing that makes it sound like another mic."

I had him make it sound like an SM-57, and then I was happy.

HE
It Ain't Necessarily So: http://howardemerson.com/music2.html

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

I had him make it sound like an SM-57, and then I was happy.

I seem to recall that Michael Jackson uses an SM57 in the studio, so you're in good company :-)

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I seem to recall that Michael Jackson uses an SM57 in the studio, so you're in good company :-)

Doug,
"Used an SM57........."

HE

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I seem to recall that Michael Jackson uses an SM57 in the studio, so you're in good company :-)

Bruce Swedien was the engineer for "Beat It" and a lot of others http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Swedien and used a Shure SM7 on that track and a lot of Michael's vocals. As a result the SM7 is now a "magic" mic to many people. Hilarious because when it's carefully compared to an SM57 at 1/3 the price they're extremely similar.

Swedien also is a fan of the Rode NT4 - but he's obviously doing it wrong both because "Rode mics suck" and "XY sucks" and the NT4 is both. I hope he stops recording hits long enough to learn about proper mic choice <grin>.

I'm a Swedien fan because he comes from an acoustic ensemble orientation, so his miking tends to emphasize the real sound in the real room. He even arranges his overdubs in front of a stereo pair and moves the sources around to their desired location instead of pan-potting everything.

Fran

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by Scott Whigham

Nice. I bought his mixing series earlier this year - really good instructor. I also picked up his Pro Tools series and again - absolutely worth the price.

I've owned the 414, own the 57, and to me there's just something weird going on with this video. In my experience recording guitar w/ both, they just sound nothing alike yet here they are very very close. To me, the 414 has a tendency to be really bright and you have to work to avoid brittleness or brashness. Where is that brightness though in this video? It sounds almost muffled-like, particularly in the mids, and that's just not like a 414 at all. Sure, it's "fuller" as he states but I'm just not really sure that using one mic placement to compare three types of mics is all that "revealing".

Those of you who have experience with the 414, was that what you expected to hear? It's been over a year since I've owned or recorded with one so maybe my memory is causing me to have romantic memories of the 414 rather than honesty haha.

Scott, there's a lot of factual info out there explaining why comparisons need to be done with a lot of care - human perception has been studied pretty carefully for about 100 years now and we know that audio memory is transitory, that volume differences are very significant, that we are strongly impacted by labels and expectations, and that we think we can compensate for these factors when we make a judgment but in fact we cannot.

It's not being inadequate, it's simply being human. But ignoring these issues leads to our firm belief and deep commitment to erroneous information. If you really want to know how two mics compare there a bunch of hoops to jump through. If you don't take care the result is not a comparison of the mics but a comparison of the methodology that we incorrectly interpret as a mic comparison.

And even moreso for preamps, of course.

Fran

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I seem to recall that Michael Jackson uses an SM57 in the studio, so you're in good company :-)

Actually not to nit pic but and do not know about other recordings but on "Thriller" for instance Bruce Swedien had MJ use a SM7 for most of the vocals while I do believe he used an SM57 on the snare drum.

[redavide]

A Guidry-esque video like this one is always enlightening. Mythbusters of the audio world. You've got to love it.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

Bruce Swedien was the engineer for "Beat It" and a lot of others http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Swedien and used a Shure SM7 on that track and a lot of Michael's vocals. As a result the SM7 is now a "magic" mic to many people. Hilarious because when it's carefully compared to an SM57 at 1/3 the price they're extremely similar.

Swedien also is a fan of the Rode NT4 - but he's obviously doing it wrong both because "Rode mics suck" and "XY sucks" and the NT4 is both. I hope he stops recording hits long enough to learn about proper mic choice <grin>.



Fran

I am also a fan of Swediens work and

I realize your statement is a bit tongue in cheek BUT I think he has a bit of knowledge about mic choice. Also to be objective and fair the fact that he chose the SM7 for some specific vocals on a specific album and has used the RODE so far as I can tell on one session, should not be misconstrued to be an exclusive endorsement of those mic's.

He also has and does use a lot of very very expensive mics. Including now his own signature mic Then again he has a few to pic from .

Here's my basic inventory of Microphones.....
Of course this does not include the vintage mikes that I keep such as:

(4) Altec 21b Condenser Mikes...
(2) Altec 21b Power supplies...

(4) Altec 21c Condenser Mikes...
(2) Altec 21c Power supplies...

(4) Shure SM7 Mikes... (In various stages of disrepair!!!)

AND this does not include my 25 Heavy Duty Anvil Suitcases for the microphones below.

BRUCIE’S MICROPHONE INVENTORY
__________________________________________________ _______________

MICROPHONES

(1)- NU-47 - Martin Kantola -
(1)- Martin Kantola Power Supply -
(1) Neumann U-47fet
(1) Neumann U-47fet
(1) Shure SM-57
(1) Shure SM-57
(1) Shure SM-57
(1) Shure SM-57
(1) Electro-Voice RE-20
(1) A.K.G. D-12e
(1) Sennheiser 421

(1) Neumann M-149 - Tube Microphone
(1) Neumann - Tube Microphone Power supply -
(1) Neumann - M-149 Microphone Shock Mount
(1) Neumann M-149 - Tube Microphone
(1) Neumann - Tube Microphone Power supply -
(1) Neumann - M-149 Microphone Shock Mount

(1) Small Windscreen

(1) Royer R-122 -
Active Ribbon-Velocity Microphone
(1) Royer R-122 -
Active Ribbon-Velocity Microphone
(1) Royer SF-12 -
Stereo Ribbon-Velocity Microphone
(1) Royer - Stereo Microphone Cable
(1) Royer R-121 - Ribbon-Velocity Microphone
(1) Royer R-121 - Ribbon-Velocity Microphone
(1) Royer SF-1 - Ribbon-Velocity Microphone
(1) Royer SF-1 - Ribbon-Velocity Microphone
(3) Royer AT84 - Microphone Shock Mounts

(2) Royer AT8410a - Microphone Shock Mounts
(2) Royer - Microphone Stand Mounts

Direct boxes -

(1) Grey Sound "The Direct" (1) Grey Sound "The Direct"
(1) Grey Sound "One For The Rhodes"
(1) Bass Box

Neumann Shock Mounts -

(1) Neumann - U47 Microphone Shock Mount
(1) Neumann - U47 Microphone Shock Mount
(1) Neumann - U47 Microphone Shock Mount

Wind Screens -

(1) PS101 - Royer Pop Screen with
Gooseneck Attachment
(1) WS 47 - Neumann U47 Tube Mike Windscreen
(Also fits the Shure SM-7)
(1) WS 47 - Neumann U47 Tube Mike Windscreen
(Also fits the Shure SM-7)
(1) Large Windscreen

(1) Neumann U-87
(1) Neumann - U87 Microphone Shock Mount
(1) Neumann U-87
(1) Neumann - U87 Microphone Shock Mount

(1)-DPA 4041-SA
(1)-DPA 4041-SB
(1)-DPA HMA4000 -
Hi-Voltage Microphone Amplifier-2 channels
(1) DPA Microphone Case... (1) DPA Stereo microphone arm...

(1) B & K 4006
(1) B & K 4006
*- Serial number replaced by red dot on capsule ring.
(1) B & K 4011
(1) B & K 4011

(2) B & K “Nose Cones” For B & K 4006’s...
(2) B & K “Weislaws’ Balls” For B & K 4006’s...
(1) Case of assorted B & K “Weislaws’ Balls” For B & K 4006’s...
(1) B & K Stereo microphone arm...#n/a
(1) Brauner Model VM 1 - Tube Microphone
(1) Brauner Model VM 1 - Tube Microphone Power supply -
(For Above)
(1) Brauner Model VM 1 Microphone Shock Mount
Plus interconnect cables-
(In top cover of Brauner microphone case.)
(1) Mike to power supply cable.
(1) Power supply cable AC cable with ground lifter.

(1) AEA Model 44C - Ribbon Microphone

(1) Neumann - Tube Microphone - U47
(1) Neumann - U47 Tube Microphone Power supply - Model NG(For Above)
(1) Mike to power supply cable.
(1) Power supply cable AC cable.

(1) Royer SF-24 -
Stereo Ribbon-Velocity Microphone
(1) RODE -
Stereo X/Y Microphone - NT4
(1) RODE - K2
Studio Condenser mikcrophone
(1) RODE -
Stereo X/Y Microphone - NT4

(1) RODE - K2
Studio Condenser mikcrophone
(1) RODE -
K2 - Microphone Power supply -(For Above) # in above...
(1) Mike to power supply cable.
(1) Power supply cable AC cable.
(1) RODE - K2
Studio Condenser mikcrophone
(1) RODE -
K2 - Microphone Power supply - (For Above) # in above...
(1) Mike to power supply cable.
(1) Power supply cable AC cable.

(1) RCA Model 44bx -
Ribbon Microphone
(1) RCA Model 44bx -
Ribbon Microphone
(1) RCA Model 77dx -
Ribbon Microphone
(1) RCA Model 77dx -
Ribbon Microphone
(1) Electro-Voice - RE-15
Dynamic Microphone
(1) Electro-Voice - RE-15
Dynamic Microphone
(1) Royer SF-24 -
Stereo Ribbon-Velocity Microphone
(1) Sony Ecm 50 ps -
Condensor Microphone
(1) Sony Ecm 50 psw -
Condensor Microphone
(1) Sony Ecm 50 939T -
Condensor Microphone
(1) Electro-Voice - 666
Dynamic Microphone
(1) Beyerdaynamic M260 N(C)
Dynamic Microphone


Bruce Swedien