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  #31  
Old 07-01-2018, 08:02 AM
GuitarDoc GuitarDoc is offline
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Originally Posted by MiG50 View Post
And CA... I just don't care for the way Peavey runs their brands/company.
It’s a shame what happened to CA. I’d high hopes they would take it forward when I purchased mine after the peavey purchased.
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  #32  
Old 07-01-2018, 08:41 AM
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doc,

CA was a disapointment. The instruments were incredibly innovative. I had high hopes for a nylon string, but alas! Peavy has done a nice job of quality control but not done anything that advances the line.
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  #33  
Old 07-01-2018, 09:36 AM
Captain Jim Captain Jim is offline
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Originally Posted by steelvibe View Post
...

I think RainSong has a good plan for their bottom line, and I love mine. Having said that, I agree with you that it looks like they could be losing market share and thus the introduction of the CH series. I wonder if a company once a leader and on the cutting edge of an idea are now are late to the party.
RainSong makes nice guitars. Their guitars, however, are more traditional looking to my eye... that is a business choice. A smart choice for pulling in a wood guitar player who is developing a curiosity about the advantages of carbon fiber. That was certainly the case for me.

Other manufacturers chose to take advantage of "molding" guitars to make body shapes that aren't similar to the wood manufacturers... and be able to take advantage of the ergonomics and sound qualities.

I recall reading a while back that RainSong purchased CNC equipment that will enable them to make their own molds, which should significantly reduce the price to design/build new models. Frankly, I expected to see some of that by now.

I guess I don't see that RainSong has been left behind, but rather has intentionally chosen their niche (and all of carbon fiber is still pretty much a niche of the guitar world).

From a strictly business point of view, the most successful have scaled their business to allow profitability as demand expands and contracts. None of the carbon fiber guitars can be considered "inexpensive," but RainSong didn't have anything to compete with Emerald or Journey in that $1,000 to $1,500 range... until offering the CH line. Since they are the largest CF guitar maker, their market is what other CF makers are looking towards. The best resolution wouldn't be each CF maker trying to expand their "piece of the pie," but to make the pie bigger. I think that is happening, as CF guitars are becoming more accepted.

Those of us on this sub-forum already know what carbon fiber offers for advantages over wood. The bigger issue is educating the rest of the guitar world so those in the market for a $1500 to $3000 guitar will consider CF along with the wood options.

Early on, carbon fiber guitars were often referred to as "plastic," and wood guitar fans wouldn't give them a second look. These days, when anyone asks about my CF guitars, I let them know it is another material option - a premium option (like Brazilian rosewood or cocobolo).

I've been around long enough to remember the early Taylor vs Martin debates, and how Taylors were catagorized (as a whole) as "thinner and too trebly"... I didn't feel that way, and chose Taylor over Martin. And, currently, I choose my Emeralds as being the CF sound I prefer.

As CF becomes more accepted, and each of the builders refines their guitar offerings, prices go up. I don't think any of them have figured out a way to mass produce them (like Taylor and Martin) to gain the economy of scale.

In the meantime, we have some great carbon fiber options.
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  #34  
Old 07-01-2018, 11:26 AM
Strumalot Strumalot is offline
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Originally Posted by GuitarDoc View Post
It’s a shame what happened to CA. I’d high hopes they would take it forward when I purchased mine after the peavey purchased.
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Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
doc,

CA was a disapointment. The instruments were incredibly innovative. I had high hopes for a nylon string, but alas! Peavy has done a nice job of quality control but not done anything that advances the line.
Interesting... besides making a new model like a nylon, what is the dissapointment?

What should Peavy change?

What innovations would you like to see?

Personally, the only thing I would change on my GX would be electronics... a K&K option would be nice.

Anything changes in the neck and body design would likely be a downgrade. Peavey did well to focus on production quality rather than make "innovations" just for the sake of making changes to attract market attention.

Other manufactures are still catching up.

Emerald just introduced a streamlined neck join in the last few weeks. CA has had this for years. And CA is still the only company that offers a production (non-custom) neck width and profile to accomodate electric players.

Soundwise, you don't hear people complaining about carbon fiber "twang," or treble/plastic brittleness as you do with some of the other CFs. The current CA sound works well for me, but if there were to be innovations, alternate materials would be the place I'd like to see it.

An eKoa GX would be of interest, but I suppose that is going to be up to Joe at Blackbird!
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  #35  
Old 07-01-2018, 12:25 PM
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Strumalot,

For one thing I think Peavy could have pushed the CF frontier with an electric model or two. The company has a lot of experience in electrics.

Peavy made my first & second CF guitars and I have a high regard for Peavy design, sound, and daring. My reservation about Peavy is that the other makers have been advancing rapidly while Peavy seems to resting. I followed the company as it went through the painfull process of bringing CA back at a high level of quality and respect what the company has accomplished.

It's sort of stupid but I guess my responce is based on the cliche of "what have you done for me recently?"
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  #36  
Old 07-01-2018, 01:53 PM
jojobean39 jojobean39 is offline
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Originally Posted by steelvibe View Post
This is exactly what Breedlove has been doing with the introduction of new models every year and offering US made models at a fraction of what they used to charge. Not only this, the iconic "moustache" bridge at one time could be found on $1500 Breedloves but now can only be had on a Masterclass. How does that affect perceived value to somebody shelling out $5K or more for a Masterclass for a guitar with the same bridge as a Pro Series?

Insightful post Jim and I really appreciate it. I took a huge hit on a Breedlove years ago and was barely able to recoup 44% of what I paid for it new, so I get how business moves in manufacturing negatively affect sellers.


Breedlove... I had one that I absolutely loved. But man, they seem to be prone to stupid stuff. That new logo they have? They might as well have written Breedlove in Comic Sans. That is a HORRIBLE logo. Their headstocks used to look so sleek and classy. Now they look like a child’s guitar. I cannot imagine the meeting where they sat, pitched and approved that design.
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  #37  
Old 07-01-2018, 02:36 PM
GuitarDoc GuitarDoc is offline
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Originally Posted by Strumalot View Post
Interesting... besides making a new model like a nylon, what is the dissapointment?

What should Peavy change?

What innovations would you like to see?

Personally, the only thing I would change on my GX would be electronics... a K&K option would be nice.

Anything changes in the neck and body design would likely be a downgrade. Peavey did well to focus on production quality rather than make "innovations" just for the sake of making changes to attract market attention.

Other manufactures are still catching up.

Emerald just introduced a streamlined neck join in the last few weeks. CA has had this for years. And CA is still the only company that offers a production (non-custom) neck width and profile to accomodate electric players.

Soundwise, you don't hear people complaining about carbon fiber "twang," or treble/plastic brittleness as you do with some of the other CFs. The current CA sound works well for me, but if there were to be innovations, alternate materials would be the place I'd like to see it.

An eKoa GX would be of interest, but I suppose that is going to be up to Joe at Blackbird!
I don't remember the whole story but many of 'us' came to this site forum from the McNichols forum. Back then the 'in' guitar was CA. They were innovation and Kramster had many of them. I pined horribly for a CA 12 that Victor owned when he opened it up, which in the old days was promised to come back. (I still have the old emails when they were taken over). I bought my Gxi at that time and am happy to know that it doesn't have the 'twang' described in other threads but now know what it is because I've played rainsongs with that sound. prepeavy was the innovative company moving everything forward. I had such hopes they would continue moving forward after peavey took over. Hence the disappointment. there were debates as to Pre Peavey vs Peavey CA qualities. since I have a Post Peavey so I could not really participate but look at the number of CA threads started recently compared into the past. Old Youtube vids of CA no new ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78pQ2wAPpWw

Last edited by GuitarDoc; 07-01-2018 at 02:38 PM. Reason: wrong name
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  #38  
Old 07-01-2018, 02:40 PM
AZLiberty AZLiberty is offline
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Originally Posted by jojobean39 View Post
Breedlove... I had one that I absolutely loved. But man, they seem to be prone to stupid stuff. That new logo they have? They might as well have written Breedlove in Comic Sans. That is a HORRIBLE logo. Their headstocks used to look so sleek and classy. Now they look like a child’s guitar. I cannot imagine the meeting where they sat, pitched and approved that design.
Yeah, I have no idea what the new owners were thinking. The old script B logo was classy, like SCGC's logo. I call the new one the "Takamine" logo. Glad I got my Breedlove before the buyout.
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  #39  
Old 07-01-2018, 02:52 PM
jojobean39 jojobean39 is offline
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Originally Posted by AZLiberty View Post
Yeah, I have no idea what the new owners were thinking. The old script B logo was classy, like SCGC's logo. I call the new one the "Takamine" logo. Glad I got my Breedlove before the buyout.


Is that why they changed the logo? They got sold?

I agree... the SCGC logo is super sleek (I actually partially traded my Breedlove and a Rainsong for a SC). I love those classy looking logos- SCGC, Olson, Flammang. Dark headstocks with simple, elegant lettering.
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  #40  
Old 07-02-2018, 06:30 AM
Strumalot Strumalot is offline
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Originally Posted by GuitarDoc View Post
I don't remember the whole story but many of 'us' came to this site forum from the McNichols forum.
Me too... and my current GX is the one that went on the road trip. Maybe you have played it?

Those were exciting times for CF guitars. New things were happening and there was a larger and more diverse user base on the MacNichols forum.

I miss that.

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Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
Strumalot,

For one thing I think Peavey could have pushed the CF frontier with an electric model or two. ... I guess my response is based on the cliche of "what have you done for me recently?"
Agreed. I have a Blade. It's a little "rough around the edges" and could use some tweaking. But it is on the right track. Plays great and sounds great on recordings with no added effects. I was surprised... probably the See More Drunkan pickups at work.

Would love to see Peavey introduce new CF electric guitars and basses. I would be a buyer.

On the GX front, what Peavey can do for me is not mess with it!!!... just in case I need another one.
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  #41  
Old 07-02-2018, 09:45 AM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
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A CF electric has to compete with a nearly indestructible and very inexpensive solid body wood guitar. I think that market is hopeless for CF for the foreseeable future.

RainSong, as the volume leader, makes less than 1000 guitars a year (I was quoted 700 recently). Regardless, only a few days production of all solid wood Martins or Taylors. Wood looks really nice. CF is really sturdy. Tone is in the ear of the beholder (I here no CF "twang" playing my RainSong CH-PA and CH-WS).

For all my CF proselytizing, I've not convinced a single in-person friend to buy a CF guitar. The only other CF guitar owner I've met face-to-face (not counting Ted of LAGS), was someone who was moving to Florida, was a full time cantor, and really wanted (possibly needed) a RainSong. I bought her a new H-WS as a going away gift.
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  #42  
Old 07-02-2018, 07:40 PM
AZLiberty AZLiberty is offline
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Originally Posted by jonfields45 View Post

RainSong, as the volume leader, makes less than 1000 guitars a year (I was quoted 700 recently). Regardless, only a few days production of all solid wood Martins or Taylors.
I was under the impression that they had pushed north of 1000/year (if barely). Based on the serial number of my Shorty, and my CH-PA, and when they were built it would be around 900/year over the past 5 years.

Martin built 85,000 guitars last year. (that includes everything not just solid wood guitars, and both factories) which is around 340 guitars a day for a standard 5 day, 50 week, work year.
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  #43  
Old 07-02-2018, 07:58 PM
Captain Jim Captain Jim is offline
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I am less concerned about who builds the most, but tend to focus on who builds what I want. If I recall correctly, in a radio interview with Alistair for Emerald's 20th Anniversary bash, I think it was said that they currently build about 15 guitars per week. As usual, I may be mis-remembering.

I have done the Taylor Factory Tour a couple times and marvel at how they can consistently produce SO MANY guitars per day. If the CF makers are using molds to produce each guitar, they can only do one at a time per model (unless they have multiple molds). I don't claim to have any insight into any of the builders, but I truly appreciate what they are producing... regardless of the numbers.

In all likelihood, CF won't ever be mass produced like the current wood makers... I'm OK with that. One more special one, with that Irish mojo... what more could a guy want?
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  #44  
Old 07-02-2018, 11:08 PM
GuitarDoc GuitarDoc is offline
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Originally Posted by Strumalot View Post
Me too... and my current GX is the one that went on the road trip. Maybe you have played it?

Those were exciting times for CF guitars. New things were happening and there was a larger and more diverse user base on the MacNichols forum.

I miss that.
Tearing up thinking about that forum and that store. Always dreamt of buying bunches from him. I’m glad I didn’t play your guitar. Heard those pre Peavy’s had something in them that made them sound better and I probably wouldn’t have purchased mine.
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  #45  
Old 07-03-2018, 04:59 AM
Strumalot Strumalot is offline
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Originally Posted by GuitarDoc View Post
I’m glad I didn’t play your guitar. Heard those pre Peavy’s had something in them that made them sound better and I probably wouldn’t have purchased mine.
My GX is a Peavey build, probably one of the first. You might recall Fred Poole posting on the MacNichol site about the Peavey takeover. I think they took about a year to tweak the designs and correct the pre-Peavey production problems.
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