The Impact of our Culture on Women in Music

[Jambi]

Originally Posted by ThermiteTermite

This is a fascinating phrase.. what exactly is 'physically saddened' ?

It's like a super sadness that makes the bones ache, I guess.

heh heh, you got me, I didn't put much thought into the phrasing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[jdmulli]

Originally Posted by jljohn

That is, in part, my hope with this thread--to speak against it and to suggest to others that these sorts of comments are not welcome. I think a lot of men don't realize that they are unwelcome and problematic.

Speaking frankly, I don't think that your thread is amiss. If women don't like being asked to smile or other such similar comments, then they shouldn't be subjugated to something that makes them uncomfortable. I've never thought about that as being a problem. Now I have. Awareness is a win for your thread, in my opinion.

I play in a band fronted by two females. I like to think that people come see us play for the lady's skills and not their looks - although they are both attractive. I often compliment them on their attire and performances (in no particular order). I don't think they find it offensive, but its something that I will now consider.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by jdmulli

Speaking frankly, I don't think that your thread is amiss. If women don't like being asked to smile or other such similar comments, then they shouldn't be subjugated to something that make them uncomfortable. I've never thought about that as being a problem. Now I have. Awareness is a win for your thread, in my opinion.

I play in a band fronted by two females. I like to think that people see us play for their skills and not their looks - although they are both attractive. I often compliment them on their attire and performances (in no particular order). I don't think they find it offensive, but its something that I will now consider.

It is so much dependant on context and intent
You being someone they know saying "You gals look sharp tonight " is one context and only they can actually relate how they might think about it
But some dweeb shouting from the audience "Hey baby " is a completely different context and everybody "should " be able to understand that it is not appropriate by any stretch.

And as far as being asked to smile ? If the asker does the same to male performers then it is arguably benign, but unfortunately that more often than not ---is not the context .

Here is a great song by an outstanding songwriter with an observation on the subject

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by jdmulli

Speaking frankly, I don't think that your thread is amiss. If women don't like being asked to smile or other such similar comments, then they shouldn't be subjugated to something that makes them uncomfortable. I've never thought about that as being a problem. Now I have. Awareness is a win for your thread, in my opinion.

I play in a band fronted by two females. I like to think that people come see us play for the lady's skills and not their looks - although they are both attractive. I often compliment them on their attire and performances (in no particular order). I don't think they find it offensive, but its something that I will now consider.

Good post. I would only add that compliments, tastefully rendered, are not generally considered offensive and are likely much appreciated. What isn't welcome is telling a woman or girl they need to smile–it suggests they are lacking in value if they aren't gratifying the viewer. That's very different than a compliment, it's a critique. I add this in as helpful a tone as possible. I like what you had to say about the thread quite a bit.

[rogthefrog]

Originally Posted by cotten

What is new about it is the rise of Victimhood in our society.

Welp, that didn't take long.

[rogthefrog]

Originally Posted by Gasworker

I think we need to think more.

Post of the month.

[cotten]

Originally Posted by rogthefrog

Welp, that didn't take long.

You may have missed the first part of my post that you quoted.

Originally Posted by cotten

No one should be treated as an object, but rather as a unique, valuable person worthy of respect.

That said, the problem being described here is as old as time itself. This doesn't make it any less real, or any less pervasive. It's just not new...

I posted that because I believe it to be true, as I do the part you quoted. Don't get me wrong. I am NOT saying that there is no problem to be discussed here, not by any stretch! I AM saying that the problem has long been with us, and only in recent years have things changed enough that we can even be having this discussion.

Please do not read into my posts opinions you guess I might have. Depend rather on the actual words I chose. I would appreciate it.

cotten

[Denny B]

I think maybe I'll go ask a few female musicians I know how they feel about this topic...

You know... get a woman's perspective on the impact of our culture on women in music...

[jljohn]

Originally Posted by Denny B

I think maybe I'll go ask a few female musicians I know how they feel about this topic...

You know... get a woman's perspective on the impact of our culture on women in music...

Please do! And, please let us know what you learn.

[sweets pal]

I am a woman. I jam with other musicians. I like to be judged on the person I am and the music I play. I have more musician friends than in other places because music makes me less of a social misfit.

Attitudes toward women in music is no different than attitudes to women in other walks of life. Some good, some bad. In a patriarchal society we have to accept that.

Being overly sensitive and not being able to laugh at oneself and the culture one grew up in causes a bunch of negativity in one's life. I don't need that.

Jan

[Dirk Hofman]

Plenty of women our there aren't willing to accept it. I support and admire that.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Dirk Hofman

Plenty of women our there aren't willing to accept it. I support and admire that.

I agree, while no doubt being able to laugh at ones self is paramount in individual happiness. Simply accepting the status quo often does not help to progress society forward . Again I tend to think in terms of outstanding musical observations

[cmd612]

Originally Posted by sweets pal

In a patriarchal society we have to accept that.

Originally Posted by Dirk Hofman

Plenty of women our there aren't willing to accept it. I support and admire that.

I think "accept it" can mean a couple of different things.

One can "accept it" in the sense of resignation - never expecting, hoping for, or attempting to bring about positive change.

Or one can "accept it" merely in the sense of an internal acknowledgement of the present status quo and a personal resolve not to let oneself be affected by it more than necessary.

I think it's possible, though perhaps not easy, to "accept" something in the second sense while not "accepting" it in the first sense.

[sweets pal]

You are right, Cmd.

I am not resigned to the status quo, I stand up for myself and other women, always have.

I am not one of the "flaming hair" feminists, only concerned with themselves and their perfect place in society.

A more relaxed attitude toward the issue makes me happy. I have many male friends so I know they appreciate who I am and how I think. I stay away from those whose attitudes I don't like and it works perfectly.

Jan

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by sweets pal

You are right, Cmd.

I am not resigned to the status quo, I stand up for myself and other women, always have.

I am not one of the "flaming hair" feminists, only concerned with themselves and their perfect place in society.

A more relaxed attitude toward the issue makes me happy. I have many male friends so I know they appreciate who I am and how I think. I stay away from those whose attitudes I don't like and it works perfectly.

Jan

I agree that a relaxed attitude and a sense of humor about oneself is a great thing. I don't find much use in labels like "flaming hair feminists" as they are broad and paint all of those who feel strongly about an issue with a broad brush regarding their entire lives and personalities. Many women I know who are very up front about such issues can in fact laugh heartily at themselves in other areas of life, and are well adjusted in all respects. I know very few women who lack the ability to laugh at themselves, but certainly they are out there. The point is, that such labels are useless unless specific about an individual.

Seeing people stand up for change and stand up for themselves can at time make people uncomfortable. I wonder if that's part of what generates such labels.

Originally Posted by cmd612

I think "accept it" can mean a couple of different things.

One can "accept it" in the sense of resignation - never expecting, hoping for, or attempting to bring about positive change.

Or one can "accept it" merely in the sense of an internal acknowledgement of the present status quo and a personal resolve not to let oneself be affected by it more than necessary.

I think it's possible, though perhaps not easy, to "accept" something in the second sense while not "accepting" it in the first sense.

Great clarification. That said, the devil is in the details of how much is "necessary". That's going to vary from person to person. Seems our society errs on the side of letting women know what they think is necessary. I'm OK with people reacting strongly. Certainly the problem in this culture isn't that it's been too long dominated by the female point of view. I grant them all the leeway in the world.