Diminished Chord in minor progression...

[cisco7]

Hi all,

This is a music theory question.

i've been trying to find the chords of the following song by ear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zOs1vpYSDQ

It seems like we're in the Key of E minor. I found the song's main chord progression is something like:

E- | A- | D7 | Gmaj7 | Edim7 | B7

or translated into scale degrees:

i- | iv- | VII7 | IIImaj7 | ??? | V7

Is anyone able to explain the function of the Edim7 chord?

Thanks a lot.

[charles Tauber]

Side-stepping the question of whether or not those are the right chords...

Any diminished seventh chord can be assigned four different names depending upon its function - where it is coming from or where it is going to. The four pitches that comprise the diminished seventh chord can be assigned four different names, the same pitches, but "enharmonically" named differently, depending upon context.

The diminished seventh on E is E, G, Bb, Db. The Bb can also be called A#, the Db called C#, the E left as E and the G left as G, giving an A# diminished 7th chord, A#, C#, E, G. That is VII of B and can be seen as a passing chord going to B.

It is a very common "device" to use a dim7 chord a semi-tone below a chord to drive to that chord. The dim7 chord doesn't need to belong to the key being played: it's just a passing chord that creates tension and drive that resolves to the next chord.

The diminished seventh chord is often used as a substitution for the V chord. For example, instead of playing A# dim7, VII of V, you could play F7 to B7 to E-, V of V of I, which is pretty common.

[Kerbie]

Charles has already given you a great answer and I agree. I love dim7 chords and I usually use them as passing chords.

[Erithon]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

The diminished seventh on E is E, G, Bb, Db. The Bb can also be called A#, the Db called C#, the E left as E and the G left as G, giving an A# diminished 7th chord, A#, C#, E, G. That is VII of B and can be seen as a passing chord going to B.

The diminished seventh chord is often used as a substitution for the V chord. For example, instead of playing A# dim7, VII of V, you could play F7 to B7 to E-, V of V of I.

I second this: it's best analyzed as an A#dim7, i.e., the leading tone chord to B. It's not true secondary dominance (an internet search will tell you more), but it is effectively functioning that. And that's a common function of diminished chords.

[cisco7]

Many thanks Charles. It truly makes sense now... and btw it sounds so good

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Side-stepping the question of whether or not those are the right chords...

Any diminished seventh chord can be assigned four different names depending upon its function - where it is coming from or where it is going to. The four pitches that comprise the diminished seventh chord can be assigned four different names, the same pitches, but "enharmonically" named differently, depending upon context.

The diminished seventh on E is E, G, Bb, Db. The Bb can also be called A#, the Db called C#, the E left as E and the G left as G, giving an A# diminished 7th chord, A#, C#, E, G. That is VII of B and can be seen as a passing chord going to B.

It is a very common "device" to use a dim7 chord a semi-tone below a chord to drive to that chord. The dim7 chord doesn't need to belong to the key being played: it's just a passing chord that creates tension and drive that resolves to the next chord.

The diminished seventh chord is often used as a substitution for the V chord. For example, instead of playing A# dim7, VII of V, you could play F7 to B7 to E-, V of V of I, which is pretty common.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by cisco7

Many thanks Charles. It truly makes sense now...

Try this common progression. Play C major, F major, G major, C major. Standard I, IV, V, I.

Try playing C major, F major, F#dim7, G major, C major.

Try playing C major, F major, F#dim7, G major, G#dim7, A minor, Bdim7, C major. Play the F to B in the bass and you have a rising bass voice. Add a treble voice (melody) that is descending and you've got two-part harmony with contrary motion. You can fill in the rest, or not, with chordal notes to add "thickness".

Try playing C major, C#dim7, D minor, G major, C major. II is a common substitution for IV, its triad containing two of the same three notes. Add some 7th's for colour and the world's your oyster, as they say.

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by cisco7

Hi all,

This is a music theory question.

i've been trying to find the chords of the following song by ear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zOs1vpYSDQ

It seems like we're in the Key of E minor. I found the song's main chord progression is something like:

E- | A- | D7 | Gmaj7 | Edim7 | B7

or translated into scale degrees:

i- | iv- | VII7 | IIImaj7 | ??? | V7

Is anyone able to explain the function of the Edim7 chord?

Thanks a lot.

Your dim chord has three notes that are a semi tone away from notes of the following B7 chord , that makes it lean heavily to B7 which then presumably resolves to Em, that cadence sounds quite familiar and gorgeously dark.

[NormanKliman]

The most interesting characteristic of diminished sevenths hasn’t been mentioned explicitly, and that is that the chord tones are equally spaced in intervals of three half steps (frets). In Charles’ example, each of the tones E-G-Bb-Db is three half steps away from the tone before it and the tone after it. If we assign numbers to the 12 tones of the chromatic scale, the chord is spelled 1-4-7-10 (1-2-3, 4-5-6, 7-8-9, 10-11-12).

As you can see, the intervals divide an octave into four equal parts, which is unique to diminished seventh chords. For example, an E7 chord (E-G#-B-D) also has four tones, but they’re not equally spaced: E to G# is four half steps, G# to B is three half steps, B to D is three half steps and D to E is two half steps (so the “numbering” would be 1-5-8-11 or 1-2-3-4, 5-6-7, 8-9-10, 11-12).

So, when chords are made of identical intervals, there are three things to consider: 1) On the guitar, we can play inversions by moving the same chord shape up or down the neck to another chord tone. If you try to do that with an E7 chord shape, for example, you’ll be playing entirely different chords rather than inversions. 2) In a broader sense, each inversion is an identically spelled chord with a different root. In Charles’ example of E-G-Bb-Db, the same tones spell E diminished seventh, G diminished seventh, Bb diminished seventh and Db diminished seventh. 3) Ultimately, this means that there are only three diminished seventh chords. In our numbering system, one of the three chords is 1-4-7-10, another is 2-5-8-11 and the other is 3-6-9-12.

Augmented chords work similarly, as they divide an octave into three equal parts and there are only four of them.

The word “enharmonic” should also be understood if you want to get your head all the way around all of this, but it only means that the “grammar” of musicology says that sometimes we’re supposed to use a different name for the same note. For example, F# and Gb are the same and C# and Db are the same, but a D major scale is spelled D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D and not D-E-Gb-G-A-B-C#-D or D-E-F#-G-A-B-Db-D.

This post is a little off topic, though, as the OP asked how diminished sevenths are used.

[Gordon Currie]

Originally Posted by cisco7

It seems like we're in the Key of E minor. I found the song's main chord progression is something like:

E- | A- | D7 | Gmaj7 | Edim7 | B7

or translated into scale degrees:

i- | iv- | VII7 | IIImaj7 | ??? | V7

Is anyone able to explain the function of the Edim7 chord?

Thanks a lot.

To my ear, the dim7 functions as a substitution for F#7. Just move the root of an F#7 up a half-step. This is super common in jazz and was the first substitution I learned.

So your scale degree progression:
i- | iv- | VII7 | IIImaj7 | *II7 | V7

*functional substitution

[elninobaby]

Originally Posted by Gordon Currie

To my ear, the dim7 functions as a substitution for F#7. Just move the root of an F#7 up a half-step. This is super common in jazz and was the first substitution I learned.

So your scale degree progression:
i- | iv- | VII7 | IIImaj7 | *II7 | V7

*functional substitution

I agree with this. The dim7 chord is dominant preparation. What Norman said about the equal spacing of the dim 7 chord leads to another phenomenon (which I think is more interesting in this case): the equal spacing leads to a tritone—two actually. One of those tritones is E and A#, same as in the F#7 chord. Tritone substitution is common in jazz. The tritone resolves by half step, E down to D# and A# up to B. The resolution of the tritone is what makes the Edim7 to B7 progression work.

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by elninobaby

I agree with this. The dim7 chord is dominant preparation. What Norman said about the equal spacing of the dim 7 chord leads to another phenomenon (which I think is more interesting in this case): the equal spacing leads to a tritone—two actually. One of those tritones is E and A#, same as in the F#7 chord. Tritone substitution is common in jazz. The tritone resolves by half step, E down to D# and A# up to B. The resolution of the tritone is what makes the Edim7 to B7 progression work.

Depending on inversion used the A # might also be a semi tone away from A, the 7 of the B7 chord, there is also a G in Edim7 so a semi tone away from F#. There are three notes just a semi tone away from notes in B7.

[NormanKliman]

Another thing that hasn’t been explicity mentioned is that any diminished seventh chord is like a hub that connects four dominant seventh chords.

Using the example of E-G-Bb-Db:

Flat the E for D#7
Flat the G for F#7
Flat the Bb for A7
Flat the Db for C7

A long time ago, I read that Pat Martino thought of the fretboard in this way. I never followed up on it (I think I’ve never even heard him play), so I might be wrong. Maybe someone else who knows more about it can comment.

[OddManOut]

Another perspective on diminished 7 chords which really helped me understand their function.

(1) Dim7 chords repeat themselves every third fret. i.e. find a diminished chord. Slide it up or down three frets...same notes rearranged in "the stack".

Example (chord notes numbered low to high on strings): E dim7: X-7-8-6-8-6 can move down to (C# dim7) X-4-5-3-5-3 or up to (G dim7) X-10-11-9-11-9

(2) A dim7 chord is a dom7 with the root augmented. Thus the dim7 can function as the dominant chord. For example C7: X-3-5-3-5-3 becomes C# dim7: X-4-5-3-5-3.

Now, based on point 1, there are the other dim7 chords related to C# dim7 (every three frets up or down) which can be used to vary the tonal nuance.

That sequence of dim7 chords for the E dim7 in the OP's progression is E, G, A#, C# (exactly the chord notes for E dim7 or any of the other chords in this sequence). Thus, based on (2), the E dim7 can function as a D#7, F#7, A7 and C7.

Play around with these to find your favorite tonal flavor for your particular progression. Particular voicings will tend to lead more strongly to some chords than others.

As previously pointed out, the E dim7's function as the F#7 gives that strong lead to the B7 in the OP's progression in Em.

Being a blueser, I love to sub on a dom7 using the dim7 a major third above (four frets) to advance the progression. An example:

E7--G# dim7--A7: 0-2-0-1-3-0 to 4-X-3-4-3-X to X-0-2-0-2-0

Now that you're on A7, you can sub in some other dim7s.

[Deliberate1]

Friends thank you all for this excellent discussion. Just today I was working with my teacher on an intro to dim chords, especially as passing chords. I am going to read and reread this thread until my eyes bleed. Or until I get it. Which ever comes first.
David