Major or Minor?

[Mr. Jelly]

This question came from a discussion I had with a long-time working musician the other night. He thinks that the tell is in the first chord. If it's minor the song is in a minor key. I explained that I do numerus songs that use both major and minor chords so when I explain to a fellow musician on stage what key it's in, I give both the major and minor key. For discussion I brought out Hesitation Blues. Here's the chords. The way I play it anyway.
Em - B7
Em - B7
Em - B7
G - G7

Refrain
C - G
D - A7 - D7 - G

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

This question came from a discussion I had with a long-time working musician the other night. He thinks that the tell is in the first chord. If it's minor the song is in a minor key. I explained that I do numerus songs that use both major and minor chords so when I explain to a fellow musician on stage what key it's in, I give both the major and minor key. For discussion I brought out Hesitation Blues. Here's the chords. The way I play it anyway.
Em - B7
Em - B7
Em - B7
G - G7

Refrain
C - G
D - A7 - D7 - G

Hi Mr. J…
That song starts section A) in minor while section B) is definitely major.

It's a cute little piece.

Here's 'Hot Tuna' version…that explores quite a few styles as it progresses…(the song starts about 35 seconds in)

Fun rendition, and very enjoyable!

[Mr. Jelly]

Thanks lJguitar

The harp player I play with uses two different harps when we do songs like this. He's seamlessly always in the pocket.

[SongwriterFan]

I usually just go by how the song "sounds" or "feels".

This song of mine is clearly in a minor key.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w70va10O3sw


This song of mine is a bit more ambiguous. Most would say it's in a major key (the chorus is definitely in a major key). But the verses have always had more of a minor feel to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUbO65sECl4

[yaharadelta]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

This question came from a discussion I had with a long-time working musician the other night. He thinks that the tell is in the first chord. If it's minor the song is in a minor key. I explained that I do numerus songs that use both major and minor chords so when I explain to a fellow musician on stage what key it's in, I give both the major and minor key. For discussion I brought out Hesitation Blues. Here's the chords. The way I play it anyway.
Em - B7
Em - B7
Em - B7
G - G7

Refrain
C - G
D - A7 - D7 - G

The way I look at one is that it's in the key of G, and Em is the relative minor key. In other words Em (the 6 chord) is used because the minor 3rd of E fits in the scale of G. So the intro kind of rocks between Em and B7, then lands on the 1 chord (G). Then the refrain is a 4 chord to 1 chord, C-G), and the last 3 chords are a typical 2,5,1 ending, the root being G. Regardeless it's a classic tune.

[stanron]

It's been said before but it's worth saying again, where the song ends, or seems to come to rest is always the best indicator of the key.

If you start with Em to B7 and then go to G the song will end nicely on the chord of G.

In the Hot Tuna video, nice choice by the way, he starts on Am to E7 and ends in C with the classic C, C7, F, Fm C sequence.

[JackC1]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

Em - B7
Em - B7
Em - B7
G - G7

Refrain
C - G
D - A7 - D7 - G

Song:
Em: E G B
B7: B D#/Eb F#/Gb A
G : G B D
G7: G B D F

Refrain:
C: C E G
D: D F#/Gb A
A7: A C#/Db E G

Notes in song:

E G B D#/Eb F#/Gb D

Notes in refrain:

C E G D F#/Gb A C#/Db

I'm going to guess the song is not major or minor scale, but it can have a major or minor feel. Kind of like the modes, some are bright and major in feel while some are dark and minor in feel.

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by stanron

It's been said before but it's worth saying again, where the song ends, or seems to come to rest is always the best indicator of the key.

But not always. I often end my songs on the 4, or the 6minor.

On the album, this song ends on the 4. When I play it live, I end on the 6minor (and the chord right before it is the 4).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur5WZZ8LGjE

[stanron]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

But not always. I often end my songs on the 4, or the 6minor.

When you do, does it sound or feel like the song has come to rest or does it have a 'dangling' or unfinished feel?

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

When a song uses major and minor chords what makes either a major or a minor key?

The tonic chord, essentially.

That's the case whether the song is fully diatonic, or contains chromatic chords (some from the parallel minor).

I.e., "mode mixture" is a common practice in rock and pop music, where a song in (say) A major will include chords from A minor, such as C, F, G or Dm. But as long as the key chord is A major, we'd say the "key" is major.

it does become a grey area where the only chord from the major key is the tonic! E.g, a rock song consisting of the chords A, C, G and F (all major), where the melody might be a bluesy one in A minor pentatonic could be said to be mostly "in A minor." And yet that A major I chord governs the whole thing.

In truth, of course, it's just "in the key of A", and we shouldn't need to specify "major" or "minor" (in terms of key), because that's just a hangover from classical theory, where a "key" had to be one or the other. (Major and minor keys can still use chromatic chords in classical theory, of course - as in jazz - but the nature of the key is still clear.)

Rock music draws most of its harmonic practices from the blues, and blues is a "modal" music, which doesn't care about chords particularly (beyond the I, IV, V), and is defined by the way it combines minor pentatonic melodies with major key harmony.

I.e., "mode mixture" (largely between mixolydian and dorian) is inbuilt in the blues, so that borderland between classical major and minor becomes rock's natural territory too.

Here are all the chords in the four most popular modes with an A keynote (excluding the diminished chords that are almost never used in rock music):

 A major (ionian): A  .  Bm .  C#m D  .  E  .  F#m .  .  A
     A mixolydian: A  .  Bm .  .   D  .  Em .  F#m G  .  A
         A dorian: Am .  Bm C  .   D  .  Em .  .   G  .  Am
A minor (aeolian): Am .  Bm C  .   Dm .  Em F  .   G  .  Am

It's common to see a mix of any of those chords in songs "in the key of A".
So whether we call the key "major" or "minor" comes back to the tonic chord. While the other chords in a song might be major or minor, the tonic is usually firmly one or the other. (Some songs might still change key in the middle, from major to minor or vice versa, but that's different from mixing chords within one key.)

Of course, if the set of chords is exclusively from one of those rows, then we could use the appropriate modal term - although that's usually only done with the middle two rows - and sometimes with Aeolian, to distinguish it from the A "minor key" which traditionally uses E major as V, not Em.

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by stanron

When you do, does it sound or feel like the song has come to rest or does it have a 'dangling' or unfinished feel?

When it ends on the 4 chord, it definitely sounds "unresolved" (since it is).

When it ends on the 6minor chord, it still sounds resolved to me . . . but it ends up sounding more like the song is in a minor key. I consider the song to be in a major key, but the key riff definitely is definitely in more of a minor key.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

When it ends on the 4 chord, it definitely sounds "unresolved" (since it is).

When it ends on the 6minor chord, it still sounds resolved to me . . . but it ends up sounding more like the song is in a minor key. I consider the song to be in a major key, but the key riff definitely is definitely in more of a minor key.

I agree (FWIW). The song has a major feel, most of the way, to my ears, but the ending on minor ties it up nicely - suits the theme too.

[Robin, Wales]

There are a number of Appalachian fiddle tunes that are "ambiguous" between major and minor when played against root and/or 5th drones. Mixolidian tunes can be particularly misleading.

It is sometimes easier to back up Celtic or Appalachian tunes DADGAD rather than than standard tuning so as to maintain that ambiguity. Of course, you'd be shot at some "traditional" old time sessions for tuning to DADGAD! But hell, you only live once! When I was working out a backup for Elzic's Farewell in my signature below I tuned to DADGAD and just made up chords that seemed to fit the tune - I have no idea what the chords actually are - but it wasn't difficult!!!

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

... you'd be shot at some "traditional" old time sessions for tuning to DADGAD! But hell, you only live once!

Which is why I'm putting off getting shot for as long as I can.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

There are a number of Appalachian fiddle tunes that are "ambiguous" between major and minor when played against root and/or 5th drones. Mixolidian tunes can be particularly misleading.

It is sometimes easier to back up Celtic or Appalachian tunes DADGAD rather than than standard tuning so as to maintain that ambiguity.

Right! Because DADGAD is a close cousin to "mountain minor" banjo tuning: GDGCD. That's DADGAD at 5th fret (less the 1st string).

Mountain "minor" is of course too precise as a name, but the whole point is that - as a variation of GDGBD - it enables playing in G minor as well as G major. Not to mention mixolydian...