Using reference tracks

[Chipotle]

I understand the idea behind using reference tracks and have started using them. If I have a very similar song I want to match--similar feel, instrumentation etc.-- it's pretty easy to compare. But sometimes I don't have a target song, or even artist, to choose a reference track. How do you go about choosing reference tracks if you don't know of a similar song?

For example, I'm currently mixing this tune. I want a bit of an old-timey Travis picking feel; it's got guitar, vocals and cajon. I've trolled through Spotify for Merle Travis and Chet Atkins to Tommy Emmanuel, even Leon Redbone for similar.



Is there a reference song you'd try to match here? Use something that isn't really similar but look for certain elements? Tell me it's great, no reference track needed?

Any other tips for using reference tracks when mixing?

[TBman]

I think the guitar sounds fine, but the vocals are too prominent.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by TBman

I think the guitar sounds fine, but the vocals are too prominent.

Thanks, I've actually gone back and forth on that. I feel like bringing them down gets them buried, though, even though the guitar & cajon are already pretty scooped in the 200-400Hz range where the vocal sits. Maybe it's just me. Happy for advice there too, although it's not directly related to the question of reference tracks.

[Doug Young]

I'd say the basic approach with references is just to acclimate your ears to a commercial sound that you like, in your room, your monitors, hopefully in the general vein of your track. Think about listening to the radio - each tune that comes on is different, even different instrumentation, style, etc, but there's a continuity to the overall sound. So you sort of want to know if your track will "fit", or leap out as being different in volume, tonal balance, etc. I do try to find tracks that are as close as possible, but it can be hard. For your example, I'd think any singer-songwriter type thing, even James Taylor or Paul Simon (limiting to tunes without a of production) would be close enough. Your example made me think of some of Pat Donahue's songs, where he sings and does some fairly fast fingerpicking/rag type stuff.

On your track, the guitar seems pretty boxy, lacking bass (tho maybe that's intentional?) and for my taste, the vocal's maybe a bit too loud. Not sure I can pick out the cajon? But nicely played and sung - and my impression may not match what you're going for.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

For your example, I'd think any singer-songwriter type thing, even James Taylor or Paul Simon (limiting to tunes without a of production) would be close enough. Your example made me think of some of Pat Donahue's songs, where he sings and does some fairly fast fingerpicking/rag type stuff.

On your track, the guitar seems pretty boxy, lacking bass (tho maybe that's intentional?) and for my taste, the vocal's maybe a bit too loud. Not sure I can pick out the cajon? But nicely played and sung - and my impression may not match what you're going for.

I was definitely going for a thinner "old timey" sound with this one. So lots of lush modern singer-songwriter stuff wasn't a good comparison in this case. The guitar itself is kind of thin and boxy (pseudo-mahogany Ibanez AC340 with Monels) so that's a stylistic choice here. Funny you mention the bass, as that's another thing I have waffled on ("sounds boomy, cut some low end" seems to go immediately to "it's kind of thin, needs some bottom"); this mix had the bass rolled back.

Thanks for the Pat Donohue rec, not someone I'd heard of. Maybe I should focus on other mix pieces for reference, like vocal balance and low end, rather than overall sound, since it's so different from what I'm trying to achieve?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

I was definitely going for a thinner "old timey" sound with this one. So lots of lush modern singer-songwriter stuff wasn't a good comparison in this case. The guitar itself is kind of thin and boxy (pseudo-mahogany Ibanez AC340 with Monels) so that's a stylistic choice here. Funny you mention the bass, as that's another thing I have waffled on ("sounds boomy, cut some low end" seems to go immediately to "it's kind of thin, needs some bottom"); this mix had the bass rolled back.

Thanks for the Pat Donohue rec, not someone I'd heard of. Maybe I should focus on other mix pieces for reference, like vocal balance and low end, rather than overall sound, since it's so different from what I'm trying to achieve?

Check out his "So You'd like to play the Guitar" as an example. I've heard him do some other stuff with fast Freddie Green style comping on an archtop, where the guitar tone would be more like yours, but can't remember the songs. Maybe check out some of the old blues guys, Blind Blake, Robert Johnson, etc? I would think Leon Redbone would be a good starting point, tho with stuff like that, often they have more production on them than we remember... Another suggestion: check out David Hamburger.

[KevWind]

Oppps double post

[KevWind]

Keeping in mind I am a vocalist first and a guitar player second
I do not think the vocal is "too loud" per se. I would however probably send it to a parallel reverb and or delay and maybe put some slight compression on the vocal track itself
And probably put some compression with a bit of make up gain on the guitar

Now for reference (Thinking outside the box)

Vocal is prominent with some verb and or delay



Vocal a tad bit less prominent also with also with fair amount of reverb/delay

[runamuck]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

I understand the idea behind using reference tracks and have started using them. If I have a very similar song I want to match--similar feel, instrumentation etc.-- it's pretty easy to compare. But sometimes I don't have a target song, or even artist, to choose a reference track. How do you go about choosing reference tracks if you don't know of a similar song?

For example, I'm currently mixing this tune. I want a bit of an old-timey Travis picking feel; it's got guitar, vocals and cajon. I've trolled through Spotify for Merle Travis and Chet Atkins to Tommy Emmanuel, even Leon Redbone for similar.



Is there a reference song you'd try to match here? Use something that isn't really similar but look for certain elements? Tell me it's great, no reference track needed?

Any other tips for using reference tracks when mixing?

Regarding a reference track for this I'd try and find something by Lyle Lovett with just him singing with a guitar.

[min7b5]

I'm a very big Greg Wells fan and I really like what he has to say in the video https://youtu.be/M5j4aneFT0k starting about about 57:00 in. I like this sort of pallet cleaner approach to using reference tracks -even if the genres don't exactly line up. And maybe when we're doing this for acoustic music stuff it might amount to more that just trying to re-correct with an Eq plugin but to go back to the source and play with mic position/distance..

[TBman]

Originally Posted by min7b5

I'm a very big Greg Wells fan and I really like what he has to say in the video https://youtu.be/M5j4aneFT0k starting about about 57:00 in. I like this sort of pallet cleaner approach to using reference tracks -even if the genres don't exactly line up. And maybe when we're doing this for acoustic music stuff it might amount to more that just trying to re-correct with an Eq plugin but to go back to the source and play with mic position/distance..

Good info, thanks for that.

[Chipotle]

Thanks for all the great advice. Particularly Doug mentioning David Hamburger--there was one track, Shekels and Change, that was a perfect reference. I also used some other "pallet cleaner" songs like Eric mentioned.

But the biggest thing was finding the right tool. The guitar and vocals were fighting each other the whole way, which would probably indicate re-doing the guitar with different micing or even a different guitar... but it was tracked elsewhere, so that wasn't an option this time. I had tried static EQ, multiband compression, even side-chaining compressing the guitar with the vocals, but it turned out what really worked was a dynamic EQ. Once I got that on the guitar, it let me carve out vocal space without affecting the bass as drastically. I have a final mix I'm pretty happy with that's far better than the one I posted previously (which has since been deleted from Soundcloud but if anyone finds this thread later, I put an mp3 of the first mix here).

[valleyguy]

They both sound great, nice job.