archtop as a flat top acoustic

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by eyesore

This all sounds pretty complicated. I’ll have to keep looking and trying guitars.my basic setup is ,guitar and amp.I don’t care for all the pedals.It gets confusing.

Seeing as you also sing I’d suggest getting a Fishman Loudbox Performer. It’s got great tone circuits and the frequency response to allow a good vocal mic to shine.

As far as plugging in an electric, straight in, it does a great job actually. Here’s an example, no pedals.

https://youtu.be/qREFdxy_GeA

HE

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by eyesore

This all sounds pretty complicated. I’ll have to keep looking and trying guitars.my basic setup is ,guitar and amp.I don’t care for all the pedals.It gets confusing.

One pedal, two cords, really pretty simple.

The problem you'll run into really is that electric guitar pickups don't really sound great plugged into a PA or PA type amp. So the pedal helps that.

Archtops are a weird thing to amplify really. You take a good archtop, acoustically, it might sound cutting, with a very pronounced upper midrange...you put a magnetic pickup on that and plug it in and the amplified tone is totally different, rounded, dark, mellow. Crazy stuff.

You don't see many people trying to amplify the acoustic tone of an archtop...because it's tough to do, and kind of goes against what people want out of them most of the time anyway. For example, if you're playing big band style old school rhythm, you're not supposed to be too loud. Originally, you were meant to be felt and heard by the band more than the audience...a big bodied archtop with high action would do that. As time went on, guys might use a mic for that acoustic tone or just go with a magnetic pickup, roll off a lot of volume, and live with the different tone.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

One pedal, two cords, really pretty simple.

The problem you'll run into really is that electric guitar pickups don't really sound great plugged into a PA or PA type amp. So the pedal helps that.

Archtops are a weird thing to amplify really. You take a good archtop, acoustically, it might sound cutting, with a very pronounced upper midrange...you put a magnetic pickup on that and plug it in and the amplified tone is totally different, rounded, dark, mellow. Crazy stuff.

You don't see many people trying to amplify the acoustic tone of an archtop...because it's tough to do, and kind of goes against what people want out of them most of the time anyway. For example, if you're playing big band style old school rhythm, you're not supposed to be too loud. Originally, you were meant to be felt and heard by the band more than the audience...a big bodied archtop with high action would do that. As time went on, guys might use a mic for that acoustic tone or just go with a magnetic pickup, roll off a lot of volume, and live with the different tone.

Jeff, I have watched your excellent videos and listened to your sound tracks and I can understand where you are coming from. I have to say that I look at the acoustic archtop very differently, as I see it just as an acoustic guitar with a certain character and timbre. I do play mine purely acoustically for songs. And at open mic' nights I just use a mic', and the archtop I have mic's up really easily on stage. I've just come in from chopping wood and grabbed my guitar and phone as it is easier to do a quick video of my approach to the archtop than talk about it. I'm just a "campfire" player, nothing more, but I do love singing with my archtop. I think that the instrument in its pure acoustic form can work as a flatop "replacement". I'm actually surprised more folks don't use them. Maybelle Carter certainly loved hers and used it instead of a flattop for the whole of her life.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Jeff, I have watched your excellent videos and listened to your sound tracks and I can understand where you are coming from. I have to say that I look at the acoustic archtop very differently, as I see it just as an acoustic guitar with a certain character and timbre. I do play mine purely acoustically for songs. And at open mic' nights I just use a mic', and the archtop I have mic's up really easily on stage. I've just come in from chopping wood and grabbed my guitar and phone as it is easier to do a quick video of my approach to the archtop than talk about it. I'm just a "campfire" player, nothing more, but I do love singing with my archtop. I think that the instrument in its pure acoustic form can work as a flatop "replacement". I'm actually surprised more folks don't use them. Maybelle Carter certainly loved hers and used it instead of a flattop for the whole of her life.

I actually don't think we disagree-- I think archtops are great too! And the old 16" L5 is pretty much the best sounding one ever made--definitely a guitar that was versatile and more than just a big band rhythm guitar.

My point is just that you just don't see much in the way of acoustic electric archtops that are intended to sound like acoustic guitars...seems most folks either just use them as acoustic guitars or play in the situations where a simple mic allows for enough amplification, and sounds better anyway.

People who want to play the archtop at much louder volumes tend to go with the electric sound, which is just totally different than the acoustic sound--of the same guitar!

My point to the OP was that if you are going to plug an archtop that has been basically decided to be an electric guitar (one with a humbucker or a P-90, for example) it might not sound great through a PA.

[Robin, Wales]

Ahh... Yep. I think I'd want a nice little value amp and mic' the cabinet into the p/a

[eyesore]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Jeff, I have watched your excellent videos and listened to your sound tracks and I can understand where you are coming from. I have to say that I look at the acoustic archtop very differently, as I see it just as an acoustic guitar with a certain character and timbre. I do play mine purely acoustically for songs. And at open mic' nights I just use a mic', and the archtop I have mic's up really easily on stage. I've just come in from chopping wood and grabbed my guitar and phone as it is easier to do a quick video of my approach to the archtop than talk about it. I'm just a "campfire" player, nothing more, but I do love singing with my archtop. I think that the instrument in its pure acoustic form can work as a flatop "replacement". I'm actually surprised more folks don't use them. Maybelle Carter certainly loved hers and used it instead of a flattop for the whole of her life.

really very nice sound. what kind of guitar is that ? thanks.

[Bluemonk]

Originally Posted by eyesore

really very nice sound. what kind of guitar is that ? thanks.

See post #4.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by eyesore

really very nice sound. what kind of guitar is that ? thanks.

Originally Posted by Bluemonk

See post #4.

It is the Godin 5th Avenue acoustic version. I picked it up for < $400 second hand. I have Steve DeRosa to thank for pointing me in the direction of this model, and for explaining the set up. When using the instrument purely acoustically, fitting a rosewood bridge gives the instrument a very different timbre than the factory fitted Tusq bridge - much warmer. And the 13-56 Martin Retro monel strings drive it along nicely.

That recording was a completely "dry" one take on my phone, upload to the YouTube app, of the song I've been learning this week. I'm not sure how I'm going to sing this song yet, so I have much work to do. But for the purpose of this thread (archtop as a flattop acoustic) I thought that I needed to sing something to compare the guitar against. I was born in London and my dad's family are from the East End (although that heritage has been "trained" out of me!) so I may end up singing this a bit more "Billy Bragg" rather than "mid Atlantic", or I just may drop it!

Even capo'd up at the 5th fret I think that you can hear on the clip that lovely archtop "bark" with a hint of valve amp and reverb going on. It's soooo different from the timbre of my D-18; I get quite torn about which one to take to the local open mic', local concerts, pub sessions or "noson lawen". My D-18 is rich and full, my archtop is sparce but with a tremendous kick. When my friends come round with their dreads I play the archtop because it just works much better in the mix than playing another dread.

[eyesore]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

It is the Godin 5th Avenue acoustic version. I picked it up for < $400 second hand. I have Steve DeRosa to thank for pointing me in the direction of this model, and for explaining the set up. When using the instrument purely acoustically, fitting a rosewood bridge gives the instrument a very different timbre than the factory fitted Tusq bridge - much warmer. And the 13-56 Martin Retro monel strings drive it along nicely.

That recording was a completely "dry" one take on my phone, upload to the YouTube app, of the song I've been learning this week. I'm not sure how I'm going to sing this song yet, so I have much work to do. But for the purpose of this thread (archtop as a flattop acoustic) I thought that I needed to sing something to compare the guitar against. I was born in London and my dad's family are from the East End (although that heritage has been "trained" out of me!) so I may end up singing this a bit more "Billy Bragg" rather than "mid Atlantic", or I just may drop it!

Even capo'd up at the 5th fret I think that you can hear on the clip that lovely archtop "bark" with a hint of valve amp and reverb going on. It's soooo different from the timbre of my D-18; I get quite torn about which one to take to the local open mic', local concerts, pub sessions or "noson lawen". My D-18 is rich and full, my archtop is sparce but with a tremendous kick. When my friends come round with their dreads I play the archtop because it just works much better in the mix than playing another dread.

Thank you for the info and the usic ! Most Appreciated!

[mr. beaumont]

It should be mentioned, Godin designed the 5th Avenue to have a little bit rounder bass response than a lot of archtops...so yes, they sound like an archtop, but they have a sound that will not be as "jarring" to someone coming from a flat top. I'd argue that you will not find anything in the price range of the 5th Avenue that sounds remotely as good. Even though I already have 3 archtops I'm pretty sure I will be unable to resist buying an acoustic 5th Av should I run into one "in the wild" one day.

Once you get into solid wood archtops, there are distinct "camps" of sound, there's the stringy, slightly nasal but nicely balanced "Benedetto" style (Eastman does a lot of these) and then there's the more vintage voiced, loud as all get out bark machines, the best rhythm guitars on the planet--but they're capable of some sweeter tones if you know how to play 'em...

When you get REALLY expensive, individual makers have their own voices, and many of them are just incredible.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

...there's the more vintage-voiced, loud-as-all-get-out bark machines, the best rhythm guitars on the planet--but they're capable of some sweeter tones if you know how to play 'em...

When you get REALLY expensive, individual makers have their own voices, and many of them are just incredible...

You're right on the money about those big-body Big Band-era comp boxes, favored for their ability to project to the back row of a 3000-seat house in the days before amplification...

For those who may not be familiar with the broad range of dynamics/tone color available from a good archtop here's one of my favorites of the younger-generation players, fellow AGF'er Jonathan Stout (AKA CampusFive) showing how it's done at Norman's Rare Guitars; as stated above, note the subtle tonal distinctions between guitars of the same make/model as well as between different makes/body sizes (he's using a prewar L-5N in the third clip), how each is used in chord-solo/single-string/comping roles - and precisely why those New York-era 18" Epiphone Emperors were so renowned for their acoustic cutting power:



On the other hand, many of the old-timers referred to their own (different) archtop technique as "coaxing the velvet out" - extracting that warm, rich, creamy, woody, "tone you can eat with a spoon" from what could, in the hands of a lesser player, be solely a strident and steely-sounding instrument, to the ears of some lacking in dynamic range and character. While both approaches have their place and time (and a well-rounded archtop player should be familiar with both) I always preferred the latter: Romain Vuillemin provides a perfect example here, on similar instruments to those used by Messrs. Stout and Rossi, and offering a strong contrast to their edgier, punchier style intended to showcase the raw power customarily associated with these guitars:

[Robin, Wales]

Steve, that was great! I really enjoyed watching those videos. I loved Romain Vuillemin. I'd have no idea how to start with his style of play? Are there some fundamental movable chords? I can hear patterns and direction in Romain's playing and feel that there must be a route folks take into this?

Watching Romain's videos you posted, I can sort of hear in my head building an accompaniment to "Tennessee Waltz" in Romain's gentle "coaxing" style. I'd love to be able to play and sing that at one of our local choir concerts. I have a very simple uninspiring backing to the song at the moment and have been looking for a direction to do something different - I think that I have just found it!

Now I just need to work out where to start and see if it's possible to get the knackered 3 2/3rds fingers that I have remaining on my left hand around the song! I fear that I may just have to pick up my guitar and play around in the dark to see what happens, as that may be the only route in!!!

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Steve, that was great! I really enjoyed watching those videos. I loved Romain Vuillemin. I'd have no idea how to start with his style of play? Are there some fundamental movable chords? I can hear patterns and direction in Romain's playing and feel that there must be a route folks take into this?...

Learned from this one myself back in the day, used to use it with my students:

https://www.melbay.com/Products/9321...rd-system.aspx

From Amazon's review:

"Commonly referred to as the 'rhythm guitarist's bible,' this innovative book is a system of guitar chord formation which maximizes power voicing while minimizing left-hand movement. Originally written by Mel Bay in 1947, this landmark publication was reissued in its original typesetting in 1973 to become the definitive text on jazz chords in private teaching studios and university jazz guitar departments around the globe. Mr. Bay's practical, analytical approach to the fingerboard produced this comprehensive system for learning full-sounding orchestral jazz guitar chords. This landmark text comes with an instructional online video."

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Learned from this one myself back in the day, used to use it with my students:

https://www.melbay.com/Products/9321...rd-system.aspx

From Amazon's review:

"Commonly referred to as the 'rhythm guitarist's bible,' this innovative book is a system of guitar chord formation which maximizes power voicing while minimizing left-hand movement. Originally written by Mel Bay in 1947, this landmark publication was reissued in its original typesetting in 1973 to become the definitive text on jazz chords in private teaching studios and university jazz guitar departments around the globe. Mr. Bay's practical, analytical approach to the fingerboard produced this comprehensive system for learning full-sounding orchestral jazz guitar chords. This landmark text comes with an instructional online video."

Thanks! It's worth $15 for me to find out if I can get my head and hands around building a backing for" Tennesse Waltz ". I spend more on a pick!!!

[Dave Richard]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

One pedal, two cords, really pretty simple.

Archtops are a weird thing to amplify really. You take a good archtop, acoustically, it might sound cutting, with a very pronounced upper midrange...you put a magnetic pickup on that and plug it in and the amplified tone is totally different, rounded, dark, mellow. Crazy stuff.

You don't see many people trying to amplify the acoustic tone of an archtop...because it's tough to do, and kind of goes against what people want out of them most of the time anyway.

I dearly love the sound of my acoustic archtops( currently a ‘48 ‘National’/Gibson L-7, and a ‘35 Epi Zemith). I love their percussive bark, unexcelled for swing rhythm, and I like the quality of the single-note lead sound. They don’t always work great for rootsy, open chord playing(although the Zenith does that well, too), IME. Amplifying their acoustic sound has been an ongoing dissapointment. A good mic works best, and can be great, but I have not found any piezo to sound good. A magnetic pickup can be a fine sound, but it’s different, and not the acoustic sound I mostly want. I love my flattops too, but those don’t, really, have the percussive sound for rhythm. So I take one of each to gigs…ha!(such a first world problem!).