School Me on the Tonedexter

[Peter Z]

Originally Posted by Gordon Currie

I have noticed that sometimes I produce a hollow sounding wavemap from training. I have learned to trash it and do it again - these wavemaps end up sounding harsh, phasey and irritating in the upper midrange. I'm not sure yet why this happens.

Same here! And knowing the reason for this could save a lot of time! Maybe James May can help out with some explanations.

[pipe dreamer]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

My thoughts as well. The Tonedexter IMO does cut a bit of low end but I feel as though this helps make it less prone to feedback. A 100% blend of the wavemap is just far too much live. I guess if you are playing solo it could work but it's not ideal. I like even a 50/50 wavemap/pickup blend. It gives me the air and natural tone of the mic but still maintains the low end and more direct tone of the pickup.

I agree with this.

If it is sounding thin, I would ask the performer to try blending back in some of the pick up sound (if they are using 100% tonedexter signal). This should still keep the mic like character of the tonedexter but should be a fuller sound from my experience.

I have often dialled it in a little like reverb, taking the blend down until I clearly hear the pick up and then dial the tonedexter back in a touch. I also have found myself with the dial just past 12 o'clock position and been very happy with the sound Tonedexter is an amazing piece of gear in my opinion......

[tadol]

If you're having trouble getting good sound from a TD while running foh, I'd seriously recommend emailing James May and ask for his advice - I'm actually surprised he hasn't chimed in here. This thread may be an impetus to have him write a faq for people in a similar position who have to mix with other peoples wavemaps in live situations -

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by tadol

If you're having trouble getting good sound from a TD while running foh...

This sort of implies that the FOH mixer has some say in the situation. Not the case -- it's pretty much "here's my wire" and we take what they give us. I was just curious as to how and why someone could drop $400 and sound worse, not better.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

This sort of implies that the FOH mixer has some say in the situation. Not the case -- it's pretty much "here's my wire" and we take what they give us. I was just curious as to how and why someone could drop $400 and sound worse, not better.

So Brett, what do you do when a player shows up with some other box - preamp, EQ pedal, reverb, Helix, you name it - or a guitar/pickup combination - and it doesn't sound good?

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

This sort of implies that the FOH mixer has some say in the situation. Not the case -- it's pretty much "here's my wire" and we take what they give us. I was just curious as to how and why someone could drop $400 and sound worse, not better.

Just like a $5,000 guitar doesn't automatically make you play better, a device like the ToneDexter doesn't automatically make your plugged-in guitar sound better. The downside of the ToneDexter is that it sometimes takes some trial-and-error to get a good-sounding wave map, and some wave maps sound better than others depending on the PA system, venue, etc.

Many of us with ToneDexters keep trying to make better wave maps, even if we have one or more that we like. Nothing is perfect, but my guitar's sound through the ToneDexter is close to that of a mic'd guitar. Having said that, different mics and mic placement can make a mic'd guitar sound better or worse, which means wave maps made with different mics and mic placement will sound different--sometimes better, sometimes worse.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

So Brent, what do you do when a player shows up with some other box - preamp, EQ pedal, reverb, Helix, you name it - or a guitar/pickup combination - and it doesn't sound good?

Usually the only quick adjustments I can ask of the player in the time frame are more/less bass, more volume, new battery. Beyond that my influence over their tone is limited to EQ.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

Usually the only quick adjustments I can ask of the player in the time frame are more/less bass, more volume, new battery. Beyond that my influence over their tone is limited to EQ.

They can do the same with ToneDexter. They have EQ. They can also completely bypass the program, and there is a blend control that can go from (nearly) all raw pickup to all processed. Ultimately, it's just a preamp with some programmed "EQ". At an extreme it can be turned of (bypassed).

I've not personally heard it sound worse than the input - (most raw pickups sound pretty bad, so it's hard to make them sound worse...), except for one relatively rare pickup that, at least for me, doesn't seem to interact well with it. But like any piece of gear, it's not going to be successful for 100% of people.

One thought - there are some pickups known to not work well with TD, magnetics in particular, tho a few others require special handling. Maybe you're getting players who didn't read the manual and are trying to use it with mags?

[Doug Young]

BTW, if people haven't seen it, here's an interesting article with lots of info about how ToneDexter gets used in some professional touring situations, presumably before relatively large audiences and thru large systems. Includes comments from some FOH guys.

https://www.prosoundweb.com/channels...nt-preampdi/2/

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

One thought - there are some pickups known to not work well with TD, magnetics in particular, tho a few others require special handling. Maybe you're getting players who didn't read the manual and are trying to use it with mags?

Seems unlikely -- the two worst ones I've encountered repeatedly are a Gitane-style (grande bouche) and a D-28, and in neither case is there anything in the soundhole.

[Doug Young]

OK, let me see if I can suggest what I would do as a sound engineer if someone had a ToneDexter and it wasn't sounding good.

1) First, I'd do the normal sound person stuff. My job would be mostly to make sure the signal level is right, maybe do a little EQ, and adjust the mix. If I can't get a good sound, I might ask the player for some basic help: "Can you give me more signal?", "Can you give me more bass?" etc, etc. You might also just give some feedback about what you hear and see if they can figure out what to do. "It's sounding thin", "I'm hearing distortion", "the sound is kind of distant", whatever.

Frankly that's probably the limit of what a FOH person should do - you can't possibly know the ins-and-outs of every pedal that could show up! But assuming you want to go above and beyond and help the player dial in their own gear, and see they're using ToneDexter, I'd go on with:

2) "Are you sure you're using the right wavemap?"

Background: TD can store 22 "wavemaps" (IRs). TD's strength is that you can create an IR for a specific guitar. It's not meant to be a "modeler" - i.e., turning your D28 into a classical guitar, and so on. If the player has the wrong wavemap selected, things could get wonky. Also, you can download other's IRs. Apparently that works for some people, but again, there's potential for a mismatch. I, for example, have multiple guitars with pickups, and I create wavemaps for each. If I forget that patch 4 is for the Ryan, not the 12-string, I may use the wrong setting, with somewhat unpredictable results.

3) "Do you have other wavemaps for that guitar?"

Background: See the article I posted on how Peter Frampton's crew is using TD. Some people create multiple IRs with different mics, different placement, just to have options. Also, just as with any gear, it's always possible that the settings that seemed right listening in the bedroom aren't working on stage. So some people hedge their bets with multiple wavemaps so they can again have options and learn what works live.

4) "Can you try another Character setting?"

Background: Each patch in TD can be altered by the "character" knob, which changes how the IR is treated in some way (You'd have to get an explanation from James or Andy if you want to know what it does technically). There are 3 basic settings, CH0, CH1, CH2. They each tend to sound different, so ask the player to try them. In addition, the left half of the character knob's range operates as a blend control. It allows you to mix the IR sound with the raw pickup from 100% ToneDexter down to about 35%. It's not unusual for people to report that full blends (like CH2) sound best at low volumes, while lower blends work better at higher levels. Acoustic guitars already have resonance issues at high volume, and a device that brings out the acoustic properties of a guitar can accentuate that, so some compromise may be necessary.

5) "OK, even the lowest blend still sounds bad. Can you hit the bypass switch?"

Background: Pressing and holding the mute switch bypasses ToneDexter completely and you have a basic DI and the raw pickup signal. If that sounds better than any TD setting, then so be it...

That's it - the process of guiding a player thru tweaking their ToneDexter. I'd be careful tho, the next time they may show up with a Helix or an H9 or something with 18 levels of menus to walk thru, and they'll think you can help them set it up!. At some point, it's the players responsibility to give you a good tone to work with, tho you'd certainly be a hero if you can help them adjust their own gear to achieve that.

[Brent Hahn]

Thoughtful reply, thanks.

The changeovers in my acoustic FOH gigs tend to take under a minute or two, and sometimes that's with 3 or 4 players who might need a tall stool or a short stool or a chair and maybe music stands.

And the last thing I'm going to do is get into a jargon-y conversation about "wave maps" and such. Good to know, though, that it's a really deep box with lots of different ways you can make things better or worse.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

Thoughtful reply, thanks.

The changeovers in my acoustic FOH gigs tend to take under a minute or two, and sometimes that's with 3 or 4 players who might need a tall stool or a short stool or a chair and maybe music stands.

And the last thing I'm going to do is get into a jargon-y conversation about "wave maps" and such. Good to know, though, that it's a really deep box with lots of different ways you can make things better or worse.

Got it. I only suggested all that since you asked to be "schooled". Your player should also be able to run thru this same process to dial in their own sound, assuming they have time.

So this is an open mic or something? With those, the drill usually is "sit down, plugin, play". If the sound sucks, that's pretty normal :-) Usually at any kind of event like that, I avoid complex gear, it's just asking for trouble if you don't really get a sound check. In my experience, showing up with anything other than a "standard" guitar and pickup is a recipe for bad sound as well. You don't want to deviate from the norm, even if you have some gear that's "better".

[BluesKing777]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

OK, let me see if I can suggest what I would do as a sound engineer if someone had a ToneDexter and it wasn't sounding good.

1) First, I'd do the normal sound person stuff. My job would be mostly to make sure the signal level is right, maybe do a little EQ, and adjust the mix. If I can't get a good sound, I might ask the player for some basic help: "Can you give me more signal?", "Can you give me more bass?" etc, etc. You might also just give some feedback about what you hear and see if they can figure out what to do. "It's sounding thin", "I'm hearing distortion", "the sound is kind of distant", whatever.

Frankly that's probably the limit of what a FOH person should do - you can't possibly know the ins-and-outs of every pedal that could show up! But assuming you want to go above and beyond and help the player dial in their own gear, and see they're using ToneDexter, I'd go on with:

2) "Are you sure you're using the right wavemap?"

Background: TD can store 22 "wavemaps" (IRs). TD's strength is that you can create an IR for a specific guitar. It's not meant to be a "modeler" - i.e., turning your D28 into a classical guitar, and so on. If the player has the wrong wavemap selected, things could get wonky. Also, you can download other's IRs. Apparently that works for some people, but again, there's potential for a mismatch. I, for example, have multiple guitars with pickups, and I create wavemaps for each. If I forget that patch 4 is for the Ryan, not the 12-string, I may use the wrong setting, with somewhat unpredictable results.

3) "Do you have other wavemaps for that guitar?"

Background: See the article I posted on how Peter Frampton's crew is using TD. Some people create multiple IRs with different mics, different placement, just to have options. Also, just as with any gear, it's always possible that the settings that seemed right listening in the bedroom aren't working on stage. So some people hedge their bets with multiple wavemaps so they can again have options and learn what works live.

4) "Can you try another Character setting?"

Background: Each patch in TD can be altered by the "character" knob, which changes how the IR is treated in some way (You'd have to get an explanation from James or Andy if you want to know what it does technically). There are 3 basic settings, CH0, CH1, CH2. They each tend to sound different, so ask the player to try them. In addition, the left half of the character knob's range operates as a blend control. It allows you to mix the IR sound with the raw pickup from 100% ToneDexter down to about 35%. It's not unusual for people to report that full blends (like CH2) sound best at low volumes, while lower blends work better at higher levels. Acoustic guitars already have resonance issues at high volume, and a device that brings out the acoustic properties of a guitar can accentuate that, so some compromise may be necessary.

5) "OK, even the lowest blend still sounds bad. Can you hit the bypass switch?"

Background: Pressing and holding the mute switch bypasses ToneDexter completely and you have a basic DI and the raw pickup signal. If that sounds better than any TD setting, then so be it...

That's it - the process of guiding a player thru tweaking their ToneDexter. I'd be careful tho, the next time they may show up with a Helix or an H9 or something with 18 levels of menus to walk thru, and they'll think you can help them set it up!. At some point, it's the players responsibility to give you a good tone to work with, tho you'd certainly be a hero if you can help them adjust their own gear to achieve that.

Thanks Doug!

You have such patience!

That could be great checklist for all TD owners to print, laminate 2 copies - one for the music room wall, one for the gig bag.

On the 'character' setting, I have decided on 'just on' at about a 1/4 turn of the knob and I am leaving it there for everything for a while. It is approx 30% wave with 70% pickup - absolutely fine and nice for K&K and ES2 type pickups and the quack is gone - but a bit lousy for undersaddle.

So I would not be patient like Doug at all - I would go up to the guitarist, read the riot act and possibly turn his knob DOWN.

BluesKing777.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

So this is an open mic or something?

Open mics once a week, and a similar "or something" a couple times a month, plus other things where they tend to rush 'em on and off.

But my first encounter with a Tonedexter was actually one where it was a 90-minute acoustic-band showcase, it was just the one act, and there was time for a relaxed loadin and soundcheck. I would have had time to actually go through the points and questions you laid out. The guitarist in question had had the Tonedexter for maybe a day or two, though, and didn't seem very conversant with it, and I was certainly no help.