friends with problems

[Doons]

Breaking with old friends is one of the most painful of the changes in all that piling up of a multitude of small distasteful changes that constitutes growing older.

- John Dos Passos

[Gdjjr]

I saw a book, years ago, titled; All you can do, is all you can do, and it is enough.

I never read it, but through the years I've thought about the title- often and a lot.
I've come to believe, that it is a trusim, in any situation- and that you, the giver have control and define the enough, not the receiver. Some call it tough love. I call it growing up. Receivers have to, grow up, or they pay the price. If they know that and refuse to act on it, it's on them, not you. A chronologically aged adult has no excuse as there is too much information/evidence easily available and accessed to ignore or blame others, which is often the situation, which is a perpetuater and not a remedy.

Every human is wired differently- that is the bottom line, and what works for one will not necessarily work for another - that must be understood by givers/nurturers lest they find themselves drowning in a sea of guilt, which perpetuates and exacerbates a given situation when trying to do the right thing for someone else.

Wiring, can be re-routed. It requires want to by the house of the wired.

Also, let me add, the use of the word friend- there is a difference between friend and acquaintance- being a friend requires a bonding from all involved party's- bonding requires time and acceptance of quirks- acquaintances are just that. Someone you know,or knew, and the relationship is casual or merely in passing, i.e., school. If a friend, demands he isn't a friend- be it overt or covert in demanding- accepting is being a friend, demanding is being childish. An adult has a difficult time being a friend to a child since a child always needs guidance, overtly and covertly, that is called parenting- that is not a friends job.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

To me, classifying addiction as a “disease” was a label our society has assigned that excuses people from making bad choices. It’s a “ conscious bad choice” to do drugs or alcohol not a disease like cancer that we have no control over. I have heard people say “it’s not his fault, he has a disease” in references to addictions.
I’m sure I will receive much pushback on this, but it is his/her fault.
No, they aren’t “good or bad people” by definition, but they did choose badly. The real disorder or disease is what was behind that choice.
They made a bad choice and if they are addicted, they are still choosing badly. People choose to quit everyday. It is difficult, sometimes extremely difficult, but it can and is done.
You can’t “quit” cancer. That’s my definition of a disease.
You may say I’m splitting hairs, but for the record, this is my belief. It would be a waste of your time to try and convince me otherwise.
BTW, I have lost many friends and some family members to addiction and my heart has always been with them.The destruction has been devastating.

Yes it is obviously a result of conscious bad choices. And yes they are certainly to blame for making those bad choices. But that does not make it, not a disease. And understanding that is not making "excuse" it's just understanding the reality of the situation.... "it's not their fault", " it's not a disease", those are two sides of the exact same coin.............................................. ..........

To use Rok's analogy ,,, because many forms of cancer and heart disease are also the result of "conscious bad choices" . The most obvious being lung cancer from smoking as well as other cancers from bad diet . And much heart disease is the result conscious bad choices of diet and choosing not exercise enough ect. AND yes you absolutely have control over those forms of cancer and heart disease, and YES people can "quit" those behaviors and the disease may well subside or not become more sever as a result of quitting those "conscious bad choices" ......Again that's just reality .........

But all that said: and back to the OP....... like smoking , bad diet, and drug and alcohol abuse. Until someones has decided they have problem are ready to change and be helped,, there little you can do that will be productive

[Golffishny]

When you just don't partake of acts and places that are detrimental to your well being you don't have to admonish others' behavior. They'll leave on their own because your not "fun" anymore. Quality friends will still be there.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

To me, classifying addiction as a “disease” was a label our society has assigned that excuses people from making bad choices. It’s a “ conscious bad choice” to do drugs or alcohol not a disease like cancer that we have no control over. I have heard people say “it’s not his fault, he has a disease” in references to addictions.
I’m sure I will receive much pushback on this, but it is his/her fault.
No, they aren’t “good or bad people” by definition, but they did choose badly. The real disorder or disease is what was behind that choice.
They made a bad choice and if they are addicted, they are still choosing badly. People choose to quit everyday. It is difficult, sometimes extremely difficult, but it can and is done.

You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but my take is different. I've had a number of friends and relatives (on my wife's side) who made plenty of bad choices when they were young. So did I. So did my wife to hear her talk about that time. I was able to use various substances recreationally, enjoyed them a lot, even feel that some of them were VERY educational and even beneficial. And a few of them, alcohol, cocaine, opium are known to be very addictive. But I was never in danger of being addicted and I did some of them more than just a little bit. Although many would and probably did disapprove of my behavior, it never got in my way or prevented me from accomplishing what I wanted in life. The same is true for most of my friends at the time. We were all stupid and crazy in our youth - that's part of what youth is for and part of growing up and learning about limits. And all but a few of us came out of it pretty easily - it was a phase, nothing more. And most of us became very productive members of society. I have a few friends who still smoke weed pretty regularly, particularly now that it's largely legal or at least decriminalized. And they're doctors and lawyers and engineers.

But a few of my friends had real problems with it. We all started, most of us could stop - a few couldn't. It wasn't because they didn't want to. At a certain point, it was out of their hands, because there IS a chemical component to addiction. My wife's mother's family is full of male alcoholics. Her father did NOT have a problem with drinking and surely didn't raise his sons to be drinkers, but both of her brothers have had substance abuse issues all their lives and probably still do. One of them does for sure, the other has always remained functional enough that it's hard to know except when he really got into trouble. We ended up mostly raising one of their kids because he and the mother were absolutely non-starters as parents. I was extremely angry at him for a long time about that - now that we're all in our 60s and he's still a total waste, I mostly just feel sorry for him.

I suppose you can question the character of anyone for their willingness to try those substances, but a significant majority of people in my generation tried a LOT of stuff and came through it just fine. And a critical minority of those people didn't come through it fine at all. For many it's a lifelong problem. It's not all just about strength of character. Some people simple cannot control it.

-Ray

[Jamolay]

Not to wade into any argument. It may be helpful to look at the broad definition of the word “disease”. Then see if it applies to a given situation. There is no room for opinion. The word has a definition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease

[RP]

Originally Posted by raysachs

...But a few of my friends had real problems with it. We all started, most of us could stop - a few couldn't. It wasn't because they didn't want to. At a certain point, it was out of their hands, because there IS a chemical component to addiction.

I suppose you can question the character of anyone for their willingness to try those substances, but a significant majority of people in my generation tried a LOT of stuff and came through it just fine. And a critical minority of those people didn't come through it fine at all. For many it's a lifelong problem. It's not all just about strength of character. Some people simple cannot control it.

-Ray

Watch Dopesick on Hulu for a look behind the scenes of oxycontin addiction in particular. I suppose I'm one of the fortunate ones whose body chemistry is antithetical to substance abuse. I've taken oxycodone after surgery - it did nothing for me. I ended up trashing a full prescription which probably had a street value of gazillion dollars. Give me a single beer on a hot day, and I've had 1/2 beer too much. Never tried smoking cigarettes and having smoked a bit of pot in my college days, I feel no need to do so again...

[Mr. Jelly]

Throughout my life I've ran on both sides of the tracks. Addiction is not in my genes. A huge blessing in my life was that I refused to let other people drag me down. I have also managed many people throughout my profession. The bottom line is action. If they are taking real action to deal with their problems I will help in a guarded fashion. Everything else is just peeing in the wind. I look at them as educational entertainment then. I treat people as I want to be treated and I'm good with that.

[ghostnote]

I'm pretty loyal to my friends and family, and I try to be non-judgemental as much as I can. I stick with people who may not always deserve it. But I don't let anyone use me. Every situation is different, and in all of those situations you have a choice. Choose wisely and with compassion. You can move on from other people but you can't move on from decisions you've made - those are with you for life.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Yes it is obviously a result of conscious bad choices. And yes they are certainly to blame for making those bad choices. But that does not make it, not a disease. And understanding that is not making "excuse" it's just understanding the reality of the situation.... Any body that says "it's not their fault" is as mistaken, as anybody who says " it's not a disease", those are two sides of the exact same coin.............................................. ..........

To use Rok's analogy ,,, because many forms of cancer and heart disease are also the result of "conscious bad choices" . The most obvious being lung cancer from smoking as well as other cancers from bad diet . And much heart disease is the result conscious bad choices of diet and choosing not exercise enough ect. AND yes you absolutely have control over those forms of cancer and heart disease, and YES people can "quit" those behaviors and the disease may well subside or not become more sever as a result of quitting those "conscious bad choices" ......Again that's just reality .........

But all that said: and back to the OP....... like smoking , bad diet, and drug and alcohol abuse. Until someones has decided they have problem are ready to change and be helped,, there little you can do that will be productive

Lots of people who have never smoked have gotten lung cancer and heart disease so that example is completely inaccurate and you are mistaken. Further more, to say we have control over getting cancer is preposterous.
I know of a friend who at 29 contracted pancreatic cancer. He was a tri-athlete in perfect health. He neither smoke or drank and had never been exposed to chemicals or anything else that may have caused this.

[TomB'sox]

Ok folks, this thread was not about the root cause of addiction or disease. Please keep it on track and let us not turn this thread into a back and forth. There will be no solving the problem of addiction or heart disease and cancer by arguing back and forth on a guitar forum.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

Lots of people who have never smoked have gotten lung cancer and heart disease so that example is completely inaccurate and you are mistaken. Further more, to say we have control over getting cancer is preposterous.
I know of a friend who at 29 contracted pancreatic cancer. He was a tri-athlete in perfect health. He neither smoke or drank and had never been exposed to chemicals or anything else that may have caused this.

The example is completely accurate . First note I said "many forms" not all forms of cancer or heart disease . The fact that people who haven't smoked, get lung cancer does not negate the fact that smoking definitely increases your risk of getting it . ..
Healthy people getting a disease does not negate the fact that, unhealthy choices can definitely contribute to getting some diseases or forms of diseases , that they would not get, if they chose more wisely....Just like drugs and alcohol



All of which points to dealing with friends with problems is not easy and there is no one pat solution or method.
First they have to willing to get help
But that alone may not be enough....sometimes it is sometimes it isn't.
The big problem like a number of other diseases that are effected specifically and differently by individual bio-chemistry, given ultimately everyones bio-chemistry is unique and why individuals can react to drugs differently which means they can also react to any kind of treatment or therapy differently. And when the person with such problem is friends with people who assume it is a character flaw or lack of will power etc., that can in fact exacerbate the problem and even eventually contribute to their demise

Hi guys,

OP here. Thanks for all of the support and responses. I've enjoyed the discussion.

As the mods say let's not veer off into arguing about the causes of addiction. Doing that here isn't going to solve anything.

Funny some mentioned family. I have a brother who is a real piece of work. A liar and a thief and worse.

I do have one lifelong friend since I was two. He's a really great guy who has his life together. Plays guitar too. We talk almost every day. Plus my wife and kids are amazing. Best parts of my life. They are worth the effort!

[Dru Edwards]

Originally Posted by J-Doug

Hi guys,

OP here. Thanks for all of the support and responses. I've enjoyed the discussion.

As the mods say let's not veer off into arguing about the causes of addiction. Doing that here isn't going to solve anything.

Funny some mentioned family. I have a brother who is a real piece of work. A liar and a thief and worse.

I do have one lifelong friend since I was two. He's a really great guy who has his life together. Plays guitar too. We talk almost every day. Plus my wife and kids are amazing. Best parts of my life. They are worth the effort!

Doug, those Special Friends are the ones that you need to keep in touch with and provide support when they need it, and they will support you in return. It's not easy to find a great supportive friend.

[woodbox]

Yagotta love our Moderators:
(post #41 above)

“ Ok folks, this thread was not about the root cause of addiction or disease. Please keep it on track and let us not turn this thread into a back and forth. There will be no solving the problem of addiction or heart disease and cancer by arguing back and forth on a guitar forum. “


With Toms words of guidance in mind, and in an effort to contribute to the OP’s question,
I’ll simply say this:

Adolescence was not much fun when I was there, and I have little tolerance for those who choose to remain there.
It’s called “growing up”, and some don’t seem to do it.
I leave folks to live with the consequences of their own choices.

It’s really very simple.. you choose this, you get that.
If you don’t want THAT, then don’t pick THIS that leads to THAT.

Some friends and family don’t like my way of thinking.