Resonance versus Sustain

[1Charlie]

The tone you are describing makes me think "archtop".

Or, as an alternative, a ladder-braced old Kalamazoo.

[Dawgrit]

True. After searching and much trial and error, I settled on a McPherson Sable for my number 1. Then a $350 Alvarez Anniversary fell in my lap and I fell into in love. Sold my Sable and paid off half the remainder of my car. Unfortunately there just arnt that many parlors out there to try when compared to every thing else. And when I demand a larger nut I cut even more out of the mix.

[DanleyJ]

I may be wrong but what I've gathered from this thread is that you may be looking for punch with short decay as you hear in old time blues players. There is more than one way to mute a string and control its decay than just palm muting. You can mute a string by plucking it with some punch and then immediately using that same finger or flat pick to come back and touch the string to shorten the decay. You can also mute strings with your fretting hand by lifting the finger slightly after striking it. This works well with full chords, too by lifting all fingers of the chord together to stop the sustain. Personally, I think you could play old bluesy stuff on any guitar if you use the right technique to get the sound you like. Also, many of those old blues players could not afford a really good guitar so cheap boxy sounding plywood guitars were used a lot to get that sound. You might want to look into Waterloo guitars if they are not out of your budget range or maybe the Martin 17 series guitars to get closer to that sound. Just my 2 cents worth.

[jaymarsch]

Originally Posted by Dawgrit

True. After searching and much trial and error, I settled on a McPherson Sable for my number 1. Then a $350 Alvarez Anniversary fell in my lap and I fell into in love. Sold my Sable and paid off half the remainder of my car. Unfortunately there just arnt that many parlors out there to try when compared to every thing else. And when I demand a larger nut I cut even more out of the mix.

I love the Alvarez parlors (maybe closer in size to a 00) and my all-mahogany one makes for a good blues box. Glad you stumbled upon something you love.

Best,
Jayne

[erhino41]

You can use right and left hand technique to get whatever note length you require. You cannot use any technique to add sustain to a guitar that is lacking it.

[Dawgrit]

Haha, yes! I have been keeping my eyes out for an old Kay/Silvertone/etc. I plan on adding an old beater Archtop to the mix. I’ve heard some with cracks and all that sounded awesome and dirty.

[HFox]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

The sooner you start relying on YOUR ears ONLY, the better.

Reading descriptions of sound is a waste of time.

No combination of woods, body shape, size, etc is ever going to equal a particular sound.

You’re the player. You’re the listener.

Respect yourself.

Howard Emerson

Howard you have just eliminated the need for ANY further posts on several
hundred subjects that may take up hundred pages on this forum.

[rpguitar]

Originally Posted by HFox

Howard you have just eliminated the need for ANY further posts on several
hundred subjects that may take up hundred pages on this forum.

Yes. Or on any of numerous other musical forums too.

The problem is that many people are inexperienced and do not trust their own ears. They want to know if what they own, or are considering owning, exhibits a particular quality relative to what is available. The internet makes it possible to overwhelm oneself with variety, and this is a hazard of that phenomenon.

I have been playing guitar for over 40 years and have owned more than 100 of them, plus played many more. I completely trust my ears and while I enjoy chatting on forums, I don't really trouble myself with what other people think about this or that sound.

However, I recently starting learning mandolin. I had absolutely no clue what good or bad mandolins sounded like, how much I needed to spend to get an instrument similar to the quality I expected from a guitar, what brands/models had a particular type of sound, or what brands represented value for the price.

So I listened to lots of YouTube videos but just like with guitar, you're sorting through all the people who play really nice instruments poorly - which tends to hide the instruments' intrinsic quality. Conversely, you are hearing virtuosos play multi-thousand dollar instruments that are impractical for a first purchase. So how do you decide? I live in a region with few mandolins available to try.

So in this case I did trawl through a lot of forum posts, trying to sort through the well- and poorly-informed opinions, the biases, and all the other muck of public forums. It narrowed things down so I was able to buy something online that at least had a stamp of public approval. Whether I agreed would be my first lesson in mandolin assessment.

So "trust your ears" is a place we may arrive at, but we don't always start there.

[Dawgrit]

Originally Posted by rpguitar

Yes. Or on any of numerous other musical forums too.

The problem is that many people are inexperienced and do not trust their own ears. They want to know if what they own, or are considering owning, exhibits a particular quality relative to what is available. The internet makes it possible to overwhelm oneself with variety, and this is a hazard of that phenomenon.

I have been playing guitar for over 40 years and have owned more than 100 of them, plus played many more. I completely trust my ears and while I enjoy chatting on forums, I don't really trouble myself with what other people think about this or that sound.

However, I recently starting learning mandolin. I had absolutely no clue what good or bad mandolins sounded like, how much I needed to spend to get an instrument similar to the quality I expected from a guitar, what brands/models had a particular type of sound, or what brands represented value for the price.

So I listened to lots of YouTube videos but just like with guitar, you're sorting through all the people who play really nice instruments poorly - which tends to hide the instruments' intrinsic quality. Conversely, you are hearing virtuosos play multi-thousand dollar instruments that are impractical for a first purchase. So how do you decide? I live in a region with few mandolins available to try.

So in this case I did trawl through a lot of forum posts, trying to sort through the well- and poorly-informed opinions, the biases, and all the other muck of public forums. It narrowed things down so I was able to buy something online that at least had a stamp of public approval. Whether I agreed would be my first lesson in mandolin assessment.

So "trust your ears" is a place we may arrive at, but we don't always start there.

Not Only people play quality instruments poorly, but some poor instruments can be made to sound amazing. But a rookie or even novice could get get easily disheartened using a difficult crap guitar. Not to mention the various microphones and recording devices people use.

[Larry Mal]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

The sooner you start relying on YOUR ears ONLY, the better.

Reading descriptions of sound is a waste of time.

No combination of woods, body shape, size, etc is ever going to equal a particular sound.

You’re the player. You’re the listener.

Respect yourself.

Howard Emerson

I disagree with this completely. He was asking about a couple of sonic phenomena which, as Charles Tauber showed, is understood and does have technical definitions.

Those technical definitions word the same way with guitars that they do with every other thing, providing a common language for discussion of a natural and scientific event, and giving the intellectual tools to begin to understand what is happening.

"Sustain" and "resonance" are in fact different things, which is why they have different words, and if the original poster wants to discuss those things in order to learn what he likes about particular guitars I don't see why that shouldn't be allowed to happen.

He wasn't asking to read descriptions of sound, although there's nothing wrong with that, he was asking about something else:

"I thought resonance and sustain were about the same. What’s the difference?"

Really this thread could have ended after Charles Tauber posted what he did- because while reading descriptions of sound might be a waste of time to some (it isn't, though) asking for deeper understanding of real world acoustic phenomena most certainly is not.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

The sooner you start relying on YOUR ears ONLY, the better.

Reading descriptions of sound is a waste of time.

Hi Howard

I rely on my ears, my hands (what I feel with each hand when I play an acoustic instrument), and my body (vibrations I feel in my chest cavity when I play).

None of these translate to definitions or discussions well.

But I generally feel and hear guitars at the same time. So for me it's not just about my ears. When I hear a great guitar, I want to play it, and when I do, it adds to the experience.

In regards to playing, I call what I feel in my body cavity 'resonance', whereas what I hear in the audience I call 'projection'. If the back of a guitar doesn't resonate so I'm feeling it while playing, it feels odd to me. I'm talking about acoustic guitars. My Strat or Tele don't resonate like my Olson or Bashkin.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by Dawgrit

Haha, yes! I have been keeping my eyes out for an old Kay/Silvertone/etc. I plan on adding an old beater Archtop to the mix. I’ve heard some with cracks and all that sounded awesome and dirty.

It's funny how back in the 60's those Kay Silvertones were considered to be junk... and today they are treasured. Same with Teisco electrics. Makes me wish I'd kept some of the "junk" I'd just given away a few years back.

[Dawgrit]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Howard

I rely on my ears, my hands (what I feel with each hand when I play an acoustic instrument), and my body (vibrations I feel in my chest cavity when I play).

None of these translate to definitions or discussions well.

But I generally feel and hear guitars at the same time. So for me it's not just about my ears. When I hear a great guitar, I want to play it, and when I do, it adds to the experience.

In regards to playing, I call what I feel in my body cavity 'resonance', whereas what I hear in the audience I call 'projection'. If the back of a guitar doesn't resonate so I'm feeling it while playing, it feels odd to me. I'm talking about acoustic guitars. My Strat or Tele don't resonate like my Olson or Bashkin.

I like your example. I played a 90’s Guild d4 dread with the archback and Now I yearn for that vibration in my torso. Yes, resonance, not sustain. Now we are having a conversation.

[gfsark]

What’s the opposite of sustain? I wouldn’t say resonance but punch. A clear example from the nylon world is classical vs. flamenco guitars. They both resonate but the classical has sustain, and the flamenco punch.

Translate this into steel string guitars and you have (on one end) something like my Santa Cruz OO which sustains forever and on the other end a _______???
Sorry, I don’t know enough about steel string guitars to fill in the blanks. Something really punchy and twangy but without huge sustain. Something out of mahogany maybe?

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by gfsark

What’s the opposite of sustain? I wouldn’t say resonance but punch. A clear example from the nylon world is classical vs. flamenco guitars. They both resonate but the classical has sustain, and the flamenco punch.

The opposite of sustain would be decay. "Punch" would refer to something in the ATTACK, or "front" of the notes, and IMO not related to sustain or decay. If you think of the ADSR envelope the opposing elements are Attack/Release, and Sustain/Decay. While I have been "corrected" in the order of the letters I believe they are more appropriately placed ASDR because as one "shapes" the sound you first have the attack or front of the note, then the sustain... which decays until it is released. This stuff is Musicality 101 with orchestral instruments but also applies to guitar in the sense of analyzing the nuances of the guitar's sound.