Best acoustic sound

[Azi]

This thread is just another great reason to be part of this community. Wonderful suggestions in here!

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha,

Here are a few statements that are bound to elicit even more wound up responses.

I have used a pair of custom Koa Daedalus W-803's at my gigs for a long time now - through hundreds & hundreds of gigs. I have played through them in the quietest, smallest, tightest little settings, in mid-size restaurants & clubs, in nightmare-bright cafetoriums, on outdoor lanai's with lotsa shrubbery, at wedding parties, on Waikiki sunset booze-cruise boats, on very large outdoor & indoor auditorium stages & hotel lanai's. I've played in irregularly-shaped, VERY noisy rooms & for loud crowds that show up wanting to dance & boogey, in the worst rooms & the best acoustic studios. I've played mostly solo, but also in duo's, w/ bands, & with several regulars who sit-in & also on crowded stages full of electric amps, percussion & bass.

Like many here, over the decades, I have put together the variable, planned signal chains/tools I need to thrive in every gigging situation.

However, I can say this: These handmade, selectively EQ'ed, highly-efficient Daedalus 3-way Daedalus W803's - with mere 8" woofers - provide this longtime acoustic gigger here with much more clarity, more details & subtleties, more natural & balanced acoustic tone /sound, more control & more penetration & coverage IN A GREATER VARIETY OF ROOMS than ANY of my previous speakers in over 100 of my live rigs used for over 50 years of regular gigging.

This comparison was especially true of my last pair of live mains: Two huge, mass-produced, w/ 15" woofers, JBL EON G-2'S (EQ'ed to throw mid-range voices & pre-recorded music around a large room+). These were the most popular stage speakers sold in the US at the time. But they were not efficient, not at all for a solo acoustic player. They hyped the bass to lower mid's & & cut acoustic-instrument-friendly frequencies & were actually a sonic liability by comparison to the Daed's. They sounded wooly, or harsh in some rooms, they lacked clarity. I had to EQ the heck out of them in every venue it seemed. They threw sound everywhere but were not musical at all - Not True with the sonic-bliss Daedalus.'

So, how could that be with those output & power spec differences? It doesn't matter - it's what my audiences perceive & tell me that I base that statement on, that & of course, my own ears (the only reading that I really trust)! Efficiency & who/with what/how it's made is what matters more than size or manufacturer with performance loudspeaker comparisons, friends. That difference sure surprised me at first.

Go with handmade in the USA Daedalus Speakers if you're a regular gigger, friends. It's the only way to fly for MOST solo giggers. Give Lou Hinkley a call in Bellingham,WA.

alohachris

alohachris

I have no doubt whatsoever that the Deadalus speakers are all that Alohachris says they are for a solo acoustic performer in the array of settings he describes--and for the kind of gigs that our OP described at first, where not only sound quality, but the whole aesthetic, including visual presentation, counts and needs to have a kind of acoustic elegance, they may very well be the clear best choice.

But I do think that it's a little unfair to compare them to an old pair of 15" JBL EON G-2'S. For acoustic music there's a world of difference even between those and my much more modest pair of RCF 310a's, let along some of the higher end items available out there for a cost similar to what you pay for a Deadalus W803. I'm not saying that my RCFs can hold their own with the Deadalus speakers, just that depending on needs and budget there are a lot of very viable options out there, and the choice is not so stark as the comparison of the Deadalus and the EONs might suggest.

I'm not wound up about it, but I thought it was worth saying. If I had the money and the gigs to justify it, I'd be looking into Deadalus, too, among the other options available in that price-range and above.

Louis

[alohachris]

Aloha Louis,

Of course I agree with you. Variety of choice - at all levels - is where it's at. Especially w/ today's live gear.

IMO, I think that the high-end choices out there, like Daedalus, are often given short-shrift at guitar forums. I waited far too long - til I was in my mid-50's - to go all the way to the higher end of my live rigs - far too long.

I hope my enthusiasm will help other players investigate the better gear that's out there - to their musical benefit - so they won't wait too long in the game as well. At least, check it out so they can experience the differences. Of course, it's NOT about spending money - it's all about the music.

As always, Louis.

Mahalo a nui,

alohachris.

[Bobby1note]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha,

Here are a few statements that are bound to elicit even more wound up responses.

I have used a pair of custom Koa Daedalus W-803's at my gigs for a long time now - through hundreds & hundreds of gigs. I have played through them in the quietest, smallest, tightest little settings, in mid-size restaurants & clubs, in nightmare-bright cafetoriums, on outdoor lanai's with lotsa shrubbery, at wedding parties, on Waikiki sunset booze-cruise boats, on very large outdoor & indoor auditorium stages & hotel lanai's. I've played in irregularly-shaped, VERY noisy rooms & for loud crowds that show up wanting to dance & boogey, in the worst rooms & the best acoustic studios. I've played mostly solo, but also in duo's, w/ bands, & with several regulars who sit-in & also on crowded stages full of electric amps, percussion & bass.

Like many here, over the decades, I have put together the variable, planned signal chains/tools I need to thrive in every gigging situation.

However, I can say this: These handmade, selectively EQ'ed, highly-efficient Daedalus 3-way Daedalus W803's - with mere 8" woofers - provide this longtime acoustic gigger here with much more clarity, more details & subtleties, more natural & balanced acoustic tone /sound, more control & more penetration & coverage IN A GREATER VARIETY OF ROOMS than ANY of my previous speakers in over 100 of my live rigs used for over 50 years of regular gigging.

This comparison was especially true of my last pair of live mains: Two huge, mass-produced, w/ 15" woofers, JBL EON G-2'S (EQ'ed to throw mid-range voices & pre-recorded music around a large room+). These were the most popular stage speakers sold in the US at the time. But they were not efficient, not at all for a solo acoustic player. They hyped the bass to lower mid's & & cut acoustic-instrument-friendly frequencies & were actually a sonic liability by comparison to the Daed's. They sounded wooly, or harsh in some rooms, they lacked clarity. I had to EQ the heck out of them in every venue it seemed. They threw sound everywhere but were not musical at all - Not True with the sonic-bliss Daedalus.'

So, how could that be with those output & power spec differences? It doesn't matter - it's what my audiences perceive & tell me that I base that statement on, that & of course, my own ears (the only reading that I really trust)! Efficiency & who/with what/how it's made is what matters more than size or manufacturer with performance loudspeaker comparisons, friends. That Daedalus difference sure surprised me at first.

Sometime in your musical career, I highly recommend that you go with handmade in the USA Daedalus Speakers if you're a regular gigger, friends. Among the many excellent choices out there today, Daedalus is the only way to fly for this old solol gigger here & I've tried or owned so many speakers. Someday, give yourself the best live sound you can. Give Lou Hinkley a call in Bellingham,WA.

alohachris

alohachris

Hi Chris,

I should point out here, that the JBL EONS most certainly shouldn't be used as a standard of reference. They're generally regarded as rubbish. Don't take my word for it, just check it out on any of the pro-sound forums. Neck and neck with the JBL JRX. I don't know where you heard that the EONs were "the most popular speaker in the U.S.", because they sure aren't popular with the pro-sound guys.

[Rick Shepherd]

Like Alohachris, I feel a sense of lost time. I wish I had discovered Lou Hinkley's speakers years before I finally did.

I wish I could do justice trying to describe what I hear when I listen to the Daedalus speakers.

Simply stated, the sound is very accurate and true. It is what I expect to hear from a high-end speaker. They are not designed to make things sound beautiful, but they do sound beautiful because they sound how I imagine they should. They leave me not wanting for anything, with the exception of an attentive audience.

Okay, I'll shut up up now.

[Lapo]

What you want Doug is an Atomic CLR or CLR Neo. Super high end powered stage monitor that's miracously affordable.Meyer, D&B level, if not better. 33lbs, compact, excellent dispersion(90x90) and super loud. Also has a 2 input mixer.

[Lapo]

I just saw that your budget is 2500 for a pair. The standard CLRs(not neodynium) are the same dimensions, 45lbs and $1000 each.

And your also getting a pair of world class near field studio monitors.
There's a guy that posts under the name Rocket Brother on other forums. He took his CLRs to a pro engineers studio where they compared them in depth to a $6000 pair of Adam S3X-V monitors. They both preferred the CLRs for near field mixing.This is all in an in depth review titled CLRs=Sonic Bliss.

Having said all that, Daedalus speakers are someting to seriously consider.They do things to capture the sound and feeling of acoustic instruments that no other speakers do.(the hardwood cabinets and specially designed woofers among other things) This amounts to the most inspiring playing experience you can find, which is a priceless thing. Good Luck

[Bobby1note]

Originally Posted by Lapo

What you want Doug is an Atomic CLR or CLR Neo. Super high end powered stage monitor that's miracously affordable.Meyer, D&B level, if not better. 33lbs, compact, excellent dispersion(90x90) and super loud. Also has a 2 input mixer.

Hmmm, no specs posted on their website. I guess we just have to believe in the "miraculous".

"Meyer, D&B level, if not better."- Really??? A d&B AudioTechnik Q7 main, will run you somewhere around $8k, a pop, and is flat out the best loudspeaker I've ever heard, and an immediately noticeable step up from the PS series NEXO's which were mentioned earlier.

[ricdoug]

I find specs to be subjective. I use a sound level meter or a sound level meter app on my Android phone, due to local noise level ordinances, to get readings. Slow and C weighted. The specs I see (using the passive cabinet efficiency) are 1 watt, 1 meter, 100 dB. What's missing is the frequency/bandwidth it was measured at. So:

2 watts, 1 meter, 103 dB

4 watts, 1 meter, 106 dB

8 watts, 1 meter, 109 dB

16 watts, 1 meter, 112 dB

32 watts, 1 meter, 115 dB

64 watts, 1 meter, 118 dB

128 watts, 1 meter, 121 dB

500 watts biamped, not stated frequency/bandwith or Root Mean Square/Peak To Peak/Peak Instantanious Power or other rating.

The woofers are rated at 250 watts and the compression drivers are rated at 90 watts, so that would lead me to believe the 500 watt biamped rating is definately not Root Mean Square.

The maximum continous Sound Pressure Level of 120 dB would calculate to about 120 watts Root Mean Square.

All that being said, I have no experience with these cabinets and they might be great. The specifications provided lead me to agree with Bobby1note's statement. Ric

[Bobby1note]

Let's get something straight, I'm not demeaning the Daedalus in any way whatsoever. I'm sure they sound wonderful, and in fact with a "soft-dome" HF driver, I'm sure they'd even have the potential to be somewhat smoother at close range, and in the top-end, than a lot of compression drivers in that price-range.

That said, the fundamental frequency-response range of voice and guitar, are extremely limited. We're talking roughly 80Hz to 1 kHz here.

The method for getting the numbers that I showed earlier, apply to any loudspeaker. I never once said that the Daedalus wouldn't be "loud enough". It depends on the gig, and the sound-pressure level required (or desired). To their credit, Daedalus at least shows a sensitivity spec, so it's therefore easy to calculate (roughly) what the continuous output level would be, as well as how loud they will be at various distances.

Using specs to determine how a speaker will sound, is a real mine-field lately, because the vast majority of published specs are generally "peak" values, and tend to lack information on how those specs were generated or measured,,, even with something so basic as the claimed "power" of a loudspeaker.(watts,,,which has absolutely nothing to do with "power"). Marketing bigger numbers sells loudspeakers, so the hype continues. Case in point; the K-series boxes, which many "believe" is a 1000w loudspeaker. How many folks read precisely what QSC says in their marketing??? Well, QSC never states anywhere that this is a 1000w "speaker", but, they do claim that it has "1000w" of amplification (two 500w amp modules,,, one for the LF driver and one for the HF driver). The HF driver in that box is rated at 25watts, so why put a 500w amp-module in there, only to limit it to 25w's? Simple, those D-class amp modules are cheap, and the bigger numbers help the marketing dudes to imply that something is greater-than what it really is, and that in turn, sells loudspeakers..

I don't want to pick solely on QSC here,,, it's just become the nature of the game in this market segment, and virtually everyone is doing it.

Going back to square-1 of this thread, the "best sound possible" requires that someone be aware of what's out there, and you most certainly won't find out about that level of gear at music-stores or in guitar magazines. It's a different world altogether. The word "best" has to mean something.

[Lapo]

"I guess we just have to believe in the "miraculous"

"These are the days of miracles and wonders" -Paul Simon

I probably shouldn't have said "if not better" as they haven't been directly compared. Anyway how they compare directly to those speakers isn't too imortant, I was implying that they are top tier speakers.

The reason they're so cheap is they're basically a gift to the digital guitar amp modeling world who also use FRFR speakers. One of these amp modeler users happens to be one of the great speaker designers on the scene. He collaborated with Atomic and designed these which are the same design as his $$$ speakers that he's had installed in every IMAX between 90 and 97 if I'm not mistaken. He has said they sound indistinguishable from his brand, Frazier's, speakers and he's one NOT given to exaggeration. Frazier is an install only operation and doesnt sell speakers retail.

As many know your paying the big $$ for the design as compared to the components, which even the best drivers are a small percentage of the cost of high end speakers.

I was almost tempted to not mention them as the wait list has been difficult in the past( I think it's better now), but we can't let the electric players have all the fun.

[Rick Shepherd]

Doug, What did you decide? Update?