Best acoustic sound

[Doug Michaels]

I recently purchased a Shelter Jam 400 after a lot of research. Though it is a great piece of gear, it has a horn instead of a tweeter and the horn doesn't cut it in my opinion. I know others love the Jam 400.

I am selling my Jam 400 on this forum right now. I am looking for something with a better treble sound but still good bass and mids.

I have tried nearly all acoustic guitar amps except Daedalus. I need something very portable, like a combo amp, since I move my stuff around for gigging a lot. I could go rack mount but prefer not to.

I do plug into a PA often but still want this to be powerful enough to fill a room with 200 people. I like parametric eq but not required. I like sweepable mids. I like a lot of headroom. I like tweeters!! And I like not too heavy, under 40 pounds. I like one piece. I solo gig with no roadies.

I currently am using my Fishman SA220 and its good stuff but I know there is better. Maybe the Shelter Unico. Maybe Daedalus.

Note....I will be using this for vocals as well and it has to do a good job on that. Need two XLR's and two separate guitar inputs, high gain.

I use a Allen and Heath ZED10FX mixer and everything goes through that including vocals, two guitars, one drum pedal(Beat Buddy).

Thanks very much for any ideas here. Only high end please, not Genz Benz or Roland, or Fender, or others made primarily for good but not great sound.

You might think I am snobbish requiring great sound. Contrary to what some friends might say, I am not. But I play for a sophisticated audience that wants good sound, clear, bi-amped, well eq'd and sounding very much like a digital recording live.

I apologize for the long post here. Had to get it all out.

[Tom Gindorf]

I would recommend the Schertler Unico. I had a AER Compact 60 previously, which was actually too transparent for me. I think there are good improvements to be made for amplified sound, which is different then playing acoustic. The Unico has been my go to amp for several years and I love it's great sound and versatility.

[stephenT]

Interesting post. I have a Schertler Jam 400 and to my ear the sound is fantastic, though if you are using the unit on the ground just behind you I can see where the sound coming at you would give the impression the top end isn't dispersing.

I use mine in a duo setting w/ two guitars and one main vocal and the sound in the room is exceptional with a large coverage area.

That isn't to say there isn't better quality out there but you'll be in the Daedalus price range. And if I had the bucks I'd buy yours as a spare.

[Bobby1note]

Sorry, but "filling" a room with "200 people",,, and using a single combo-amp,,,, and looking for the "best sound possible",,,,, just doesn't go together in my opinion.

The AER's manufacture their own full-range loudspeakers in-house, and have won all sorts of industry awards for their speaker designs. If I were looking for a combo-amp, I'd explore the AER offerings.

That said, 200 people is quite a crowd, and unless their seated quietly, listening attentively (instead of talking amongst themselves), I'd go with a full-range P/A, including a sub-woofer.

[Aaron Smith]

Originally Posted by Bobby1note

Sorry, but "filling" a room with "200 people",,, and using a single combo-amp,,,, and looking for the "best sound possible",,,,, just doesn't go together in my opinion.

The AER's manufacture their own full-range loudspeakers in-house, and have won all sorts of industry awards for their speaker designs. If I were looking for a combo-amp, I'd explore the AER offerings.

That said, 200 people is quite a crowd, and unless their seated quietly, listening attentively (instead of talking amongst themselves), I'd go with a full-range P/A, including a sub-woofer.

I totally agree here. It seems to me that a lot of your problems could be fixed with a decent powered PA speaker or two, and a more flexible EQ than what's on your mixer. QSC K-10 and a DTAR Equinox perhaps?
I'm using a pair of K-10's with the new QSC Touchmix mixer. I'm still in the honeymoon period, with the mixer, but with little effort I can make that rig sound any way I want it to sound. It is amazing gear, and I don't think there's an all-in-one acoustic amp that can touch it.

[jseth]

I would also suggest looking into the various AER offerings... a buddy of mine got a hold of a used AER Domino, which has 4 separate channels, each with 3 band eq and their own assignable (and highly useable!) effects...

His first comment, after using it for the first time for a quartet acoustic gig was, "I am selling my PA!"... this, from alifetime pro musician who tours up and down the west coast nearly constantly, from his home in Portland to San Diego, and everywhere in between.

I have one of the Compact 60 units, and one of my biggest concerns when I got it was, "How in the world will a single 8" speaker handle vocals and acoustic guitar adequately?"... after using it in a crowded bar that was a huge space, I was simply amazed! That little Compact not only "cut it" as my only sound source, but it sounded STELLAR!

Whatever AER does with their speakers is a phenomenal achievement in sound quality. Not only does the speaker sound wonderful, but it is perfectly mated with the amplifier section and produces 2-3 times MORE useable volume than I would have ever expected...

Other than that, I have to say that I have NEVER heard a better small (or larger) PA for acoustic guitar and voice than the Bose systems... I have an older Model I Classic with one subwoofer cabinet (B1), and the thing makes me smile every time I play through it; it is very much like being in a recording studio and listening to your self on a good set of headphones. Prior to getting this rig, I was NOT any sort of Bose fanboy... but I sure am now!

The sound dispersion (without drop-off or dead spots) is simply unparalleled in my experience... as is the rejection of any feedback nonsense. ZERO noise or hiss (same as my AER), just crystalline sound.

[aknow]

If you want more treble response than the Schertler, try the Carvin AG-400.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Doug Michaels

I recently purchased a Shelter Jam 400 after a lot of research. Though it is a great piece of gear, it has a horn instead of a tweeter and the horn doesn't cut it in my opinion. I know others love the Jam 400.

I am selling my Jam 400 on this forum right now. I am looking for something with a better treble sound but still good bass and mids.

I have tried nearly all acoustic guitar amps except Daedalus. I need something very portable, like a combo amp, since I move my stuff around for gigging a lot. I could go rack mount but prefer not to.

I do plug into a PA often but still want this to be powerful enough to fill a room with 200 people. I like parametric eq but not required. I like sweepable mids. I like a lot of headroom. I like tweeters!! And I like not too heavy, under 40 pounds. I like one piece. I solo gig with no roadies.

I currently am using my Fishman SA220 and its good stuff but I know there is better. Maybe the Shelter Unico. Maybe Daedalus.

Note....I will be using this for vocals as well and it has to do a good job on that. Need two XLR's and two separate guitar inputs, high gain.

I use a Allen and Heath ZED10FX mixer and everything goes through that including vocals, two guitars, one drum pedal(Beat Buddy).

Thanks very much for any ideas here. Only high end please, not Genz Benz or Roland, or Fender, or others made primarily for good but not great sound.

You might think I am snobbish requiring great sound. Contrary to what some friends might say, I am not. But I play for a sophisticated audience that wants good sound, clear, bi-amped, well eq'd and sounding very much like a digital recording live.

I apologize for the long post here. Had to get it all out.

Doing all that with a single combo amp will be tough. Besides the Jam 400 (which you don't want to use), there's the AER Domino (4 x 1 topology). Perhaps adding one of the AER powered PA speakers on a stick to a Domino would get you the needed coverage. But you're stillstuck with having to access the Domino to change controls.

A full Bose would certainly work with an external mixer, if you like the sound of that system.

A standard PA would also work.

Going a Daedalus route is also possible, say a pair of W803 (3 way passive), add an SPS-1 to the one you already have (and have Greg mod one of them to allow for a 4x2 topology), add a nice power amp (e.g., Bryston 4BSST), perhaps an effects unit, perhaps a small powered monitor if needed, and you'll be in sonic heaven. Big schelping factor though.

[Doug Michaels]

These are all such great responses so far. Hope I get more to chew on. But thanks for these. I will give them much more thought than I can right now.
Off to the on line searching.

[akafloyd]

It seems to me that since you're already using the mixer a good quality powered speaker would serve nicely.

[Finger Stylish]

I have to combo Amps I use to get the sound / EQ I want then run them through a PA. Since most of my practice is through the combo's, I find it saves time getting the sound EQ'd at go time with this method.
I use an Acoustic 20 , and a Fishman Loudbox Artist, and run them through a Behringer PA.
Works well playing my 70's acoustic stuff at my venues which are around 50 people with 100 ears.
If I'm playing a larger venue such as Churches, I run the combos through their systems and allow them to set the volumes as "not to offend".

[uncommonsense]

IMHO, I have had great success emulating great player/performers I have met and gigged with on the road. What I learned was to get the best direct sound i could possibly achieve, and then as for as both house and stage amplification are concerned its just a matter of how loud. This way I am able to use whatever amplified speakers/monitors are available to me. I currently use an AER Colourizer, Boss reverb, and a loop station for my pre amplification signal, and I run it into a QSC 1000w 12" monitor with a horn. The QSC has 2 inputs so I can mix in a vocal mic whenever desired. If a large venue needs more than that I can simply run them a direct signal.

Hope this helps. I just think that acoustic players should focus on processing for their tone, while electric players rely on amplification to GET their tone.

[ricdoug]

Getting your sound above the heads of your audience is one of the best ways to fill a room. Crowds of 200 absorb a lot of sound. Your mixer, along with a pair of QSC10's mounted at least 6' high on stands would be one way to accomplish this.

A Bose L1 II with B2 Bass module and your mixer would be another.

The Carvin AG300 with 300AGE extension speaker mounted at least 6' high on stands and using your mixer would also work.

The hardest part will be finding the gear where you can test it out with your guitars and your microphones and your mixer.

My suggestions do not meet your portability requirements, but I feel they will do the job you demand better than any single amp on the ground. I use hand trucks to move gear from the car to the gig:

http://www.harborfreight.com/24-in-x...uck-68894.html

Another way may be to change the tweeter in your jam 400. It will be interesting to hear about your final solution. Ric

[6L6]

Are you a singer or just a player?

If you sing, I've found nothing sounds as good as the vocal channel on my Fender Acoustasonic Jr DSP amp. The guitar channel isn't perfect, but it's plenty good enough if fed by an acoustic with a K&K Pure Mini pup.

I play this room once in awhile and it loads up with close to 200 folks:



My Fender amp handles the crowd easily.

That said, I really like my Fishman Mini (actually own two of these) and my Fishman Performer as well.

[Bobby1note]

Originally Posted by Doug Michaels

These are all such great responses so far. Hope I get more to chew on. But thanks for these. I will give them much more thought than I can right now.
Off to the on line searching.

The end of your search, starts with a reasonably complete understanding of what you're dealing with, and not focusing solely on equipment. It starts with the quality of the production, and ends with the quality of the "re"-production.

Breaking it down, it goes something like this;

Source (sound-quality of instrument or voice),,,

-interaction between source and signal-chain(mic selection,mic technique/mic-placement/ instrument pick-ups),,,,

-proper gain-staging,,,,

-quality and flexibility of signal processing (EQ/FX, compression, gating, limiting, etc),,,,

-mixing,,,,

-output-staging(including output-level, proper phasing and time alignment, and room EQ),,,,

-and finally, the linearity of the output amplifiers and speakers at various levels of their dynamic range.

In the end, your reproduction-system will only be a s good as it's weakest link.

If you've got a bit of spare time ( a couple of hours), check out this tutorial from Yamaha first, and then do your equipment research. You may also want to visit a "real" pro-audio dealer in your area(not a "music store"). I can pretty well guarantee that you'll find pro-level gear that you never even knew existed. Unlike the consumer-level gear that you generally find in "music-stores", you'll be dealing in a world where specs genuinely have meaning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MChYalokpdU

Check out some of the many Youtube videos by Dave Rat, one of the top sound-engineers around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU9BmupC62c