Pernambuco back and sides for new build.

[Joshua_Logan]

Hello all!

I'm new to the forum and was told to post over here to see if I can get some opinions from Luthiers who have worked with the material.

I have put down a deposit for a G.R. Bear build for a Grand OO. We were discussing back and sides woods and I happen to have a set of pernambuco wood at home that I would like to use. He informed me he would be happy to use the set, but could not use his standard warranty for back and sides due to pernambuco's propensity to crack (which is completely understandable). He did say he uses laminates on the sides so those won't be an issue. That being said I've looked at everything I could possibly find concerning the use of pernambuco as a back/sides tonewood. Best information I've seen on this comes from Bruce Sexauer and he stated if it's flatsawn, it will crack, if quartersawn it should be fine. The set I have at home appears the back is quartersawn, but to what degree I am unsure. I am wondering if you all could help me figure if the set I own will be stable enough. The back and sides look to be flatsawn and that is ok, because they will be laminated. I posted a link to the picture . I can take more detailed photos if necessary.

Also, how do I embed photos into the post? It just asks for links.

https://imgur.com/a/OHSjI34

[Bruce Sexauer]

I will repeat my post from your other thread:

Your pernambuco is flat sawn. Any piece of wood in our world is best judged by its lowest common denominator, so although 3/4 of your back has the appearance of quartersawn-ness, it is actually perfectly flatsawn in the other quarter:so flat-sawn. My experience is that all pernambuco I have used which has any flat-sawn area did in fact check (crack) in that area within a years time. And none of the quarter-sawn pernambuco I have used did so over the ensuing years, although I have seen it crack from abuse. I have made 27 guitars from pernambuco over about 13 years, 20 quartered, and 7 flat (+/-). Other builders may have a different experience, but my results seem absolutely consistent.

None of the cracked guitars have actually failed, as far as I know, and they do produce the hoped for tonal results we expect from the material. I would not expect laminated plates to have the same stability issues . . . Nor would I expect the same tonal results, sadly.

If your builder is using laminated sides, they are probably what I call a “modern” luthier, and for that type of construction the Tonewood is of much less importance than in traditional “live” construction, and so the pernambuco (or any other material) is more for appearance than tone, and laminated construction isn’t such a bad idea with your material. This is a controversial statement and is my opinion, of course.

[Tim McKnight]

I've built a few guitars with Pernambuco and none have cracked but all were built with accurately quarter sawn cuts of wood.

The money you spend, having a custom guitar built, with flat sawn wood that has a propensity to crack is taking a huge risk IMO. If it does crack (you've been amply cautioned on the front end) then it's not only a disappointment for you and your builder but will add another monetary layer for the added cost to have it repaired.

If you are dead set on using that set then ask the builder to glue in cross grain 1/2" wide x .030" cross grain strips of quality cut tonewood between the back's ladder bar braces. Those strips will not impact the tone significantly and will give an extra layer of crack mitigation for the flat sawn back.

[TomB'sox]

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=511949

[Dogma]

Originally Posted by Tim McKnight

I've built a few guitars with Pernambuco and none have cracked but all were built with accurately quarter sawn cuts of wood.

The money you spend, having a custom guitar built, with flat sawn wood that has a propensity to crack is taking a huge risk IMO. If it does crack (you've been amply cautioned on the front end) then it's not only a disappointment for you and your builder but will add another monetary layer for the added cost to have it repaired.

If you are dead set on using that set then ask the builder to glue in cross grain 1/2" wide x .030" cross grain strips of quality cut tonewood between the back's ladder bar braces. Those strips will not impact the tone significantly and will give an extra layer of crack mitigation for the flat sawn back.

His luthier uses a different bracing pattern in the back - lower bout. Not sure if/how this might impact your suggestions:
https://www.grbear.com/gallery

[iim7V7IM7]

Use a set of hardwood from Rye’s wood locker!

In my opinion, choice of woods is opportunistic, meaning once you have selected a luthier look within their wood locker for you choice of back and side woods. Let your luthier recommend some choices based on their understanding of your playing style and tonal goals.

Timbers from a builder’s locker were chosen by them based upon is mechanical, acoustic and aesthetic properties. Its seasoning, moisture content and stability are known. Laminated sides will reduce the likelihood of breaking during bending and through life, but the back will have differential shrinkage due to its flatsawn nature. This is physics and whether it is ladder braced or using a Trevor Gore-like scheme like Rye uses it does not matter.

This is what quartersawn Pernambuco looks like with and without finish (below). Like many red colored woods, it continues to darken over time (oxidation). I have owned this guitar since October 2014 and it has been through many east coast winters but kept humidified without any cracks.



Rye has so many beautiful Australian timbers such as Gidgi and Australian Blackwood. If I were in your shoes, I’d always opt for a set selected by my luthier with known seasoning, properties, provenance and their understanding of my playing and goals.

My $.02

[Dogma]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

Use a set of hardwood from Rye’s wood locker!

In my opinion, choice of woods is opportunistic, meaning once you have selected a luthier look within their wood locker for you choice of back and side woods. Let your luthier recommend some choices based on their understanding of your playing style and tonal goals.

Timbers from a builder’s locker was chosen by them based upon is mechanical, acoustic and aesthetic properties. Its seasoning, moisture content and stability are known. Laminated sides will reduce the likelihood of breaking during bending and through life, but the back will have differential shrinkage due to its flatsawn nature. This is physics and whether it is ladder braced or using a Trevor Gore-like scheme like Rye uses it does not mater.

This is what quartersawn Pernambuco looks like with and without finish (below). Like many red colored woods, it continues to darken over time (oxidation). I have owned is guitar since October 2014 and it has been through many east coast winters but kept humidified without any cracks.



Rye has so many beautiful Australian timbers such as Gidgi and Australian Blackwood. If I were in your shoes, I’d always opt for a set selected by my luthier with known seasoning, properties, provenance and their understanding of my playing and goals.

My $.02

I add my inflation adjusted $.02 in agreement!

[Jamiejoon]

I echo the comment by Bob above: use a set from Rye's wood locker. He has some amazing Gidgee. I have a Rye Bear Gidgee 00, and I am very happy with it. OR...have Bruce (or one of the other unicorns who have the good stuff) build you a proper Pernambuco guitar.

[colins]

Plus one on letting the builder choose the wood for the back and sides (and the top!). Talk with them about the tone you want and the way you play and let them use their skill and experience to build the best guitar for you.

That said, it’s also a nice part of the process to personalise the guitar. Binding, headstock veneer, rosette etc can all be places where you can make choices that personalise the guitar for you. I first learnt this on a Baranik build where Mike used jarrah (a nicely-figured Australian wood) for the binding.

[fregly]

That Sexauer has unobtainium level pernambuco. Wowsers!

[Bruce Sexauer]

Originally Posted by fregly

That Sexauer has unobtainium level pernambuco. Wowsers!

About 14 of my 27+/- pernambuco guitars were made with sister wood of Bob’s example posted above. I inventoried my pernambuco a couple of weeks ago and found I have 3 more sets from this group as well as another 4 sets from other scores.

Nearly 25 years ago I got interested in violins and learned of the properties of Pernambuco, which is used for violin blows. It seemed to me that those properties ought to translate well into guitar Tonewood. Unfortunately, I also learned that the trees are said to not grow large enough for quarter-sawn 2 piece backs. Since there are giants among other species, I decided to look for giant pernambuco. It took years to find what I have, and I paid more for it than for any other wood in my locker.

My earliest pernambuco score was not quarter-sawn, and had quite a bit of degrade due to improper storage, but the 5 guitars I was able to make from it have held up quite well despite these issues. The one Joe Satriani bought from me is one of these, as is the one Walter Strauss is currently making great music with.

Pernambuco did indeed turn out to make spectacular guitars, and a few other luthiers have jumped on my bandwagon. Due to the extreme rarity of large enough trees, and the fact that international trade in pernambuco is tightly controlled, mostly due to over foresting in the 1600’s to serve the European dye industry, it is likely that pernambuco will become increasingly rare as time passes.

[justonwo]

I wouldn’t try hunting down pernambuco for the builder. Builders spend years building up stashes of wood they think are remarkable. I would choose from what they have. Buying wood sight unseen would not be my preference.

[BlackKeys36]

Originally Posted by Dogma

I add my inflation adjusted $.02 in agreement!

Make that $.06. I have a few hundred sets of tonewood (including some partially quartered pernambuco) and if I was going to commission a pernambuco guitar I would get a luthier that has quartered stuff in their locker to build it.

Congrats on your GR Bear commission! He's on my short list to own someday.