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  #16  
Old 06-24-2021, 01:22 PM
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Default Glue is starting to be applied...

Wow, Steve certainly doesn't hang around.

This should take less time than I thought!


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  #17  
Old 06-24-2021, 02:29 PM
jonnymosco jonnymosco is offline
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Really exciting stuff Adam!

I've always liked the Kohno bridge and used this design on my own build.

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  #18  
Old 06-24-2021, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jonnymosco View Post
Really exciting stuff Adam!

I've always liked the Kohno bridge and used this design on my own build.

That's nice...much better than the usual bland stuff.

Personally, I really like the shape of the Breedlove and the Furch crossover bridges, but Steve would need to modify these to ensure they are the right mass so as not to interfere with the sound...
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  #19  
Old 06-25-2021, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Adamski View Post
I find the flat fingerboard thing dreadful...it just feels slab-like and not very comfortable (although I have only played 50 & 52mm). So I'm going to go for 47mm and an 20" radius (so fairly flat still).

I did suggest a 12 hole bridge and Steve said "I wouldn't"... I explored this and he said that he has never seen a 12 hole bridge where there isn't a gouge on the front from one of the treble strings coming undone and slipping out. I do like the look of a 12 hole bridge...but a ding in the front is a high price to pay!
Interesting viewpoint, in my experience gouging the top when changing strings or due to the string slipping is no more likely with a 12-hole bridge than a 6-hole. With the former I find it’s easier to ensure the string is trapped against the back of the tie block, not to mention that the 12-hole design looks more elegant when strung up to me.

Avoiding top gouges when stringing up is easy if you always use a piece of card or similar behind the bridge as you tie the strings. To avoid possible damage if a string slips you can melt a small ball into the end of the string which will stop it pulling through the not should it slip. In fact, I use the melted ball-end to anchor the string rather than a knot as I’ve always found it more predictable especially with the slippery high E string or fluorocarbon strings. Just pass the string end close to a lighter flame, or vice versa to form the ball. Avoid burning the nylon as this will make it brittle. Best done away from the instrument just in case!
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  #20  
Old 06-25-2021, 05:56 AM
steveh steveh is offline
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I will clarify...I like the neatness of a 12 hole...but not the idea of it damaging the front. I will reconsider mate, thanks.
It will not damage the front - it will do the opposite: See post immediately above!

Also, a 12 or 18-hole bridge will improve the break angle across the saddle, and you won't need to use those awful "bridge beads" if you lose saddle height. Indeed, the whole point of bridge beads is to provide a 6-hole bridge with the benefits of an 18 hole (better angle, tighter locking), so get it done on the bridge in the fiirst place.

This is a nylon guitar we're talking about here, so string tension on the saddle is way less and things like break angle become proportionally more important than on a steel-string.

Can't wait to play it!

Cheers,
Steve
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  #21  
Old 06-25-2021, 07:00 AM
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Also, a 12 or 18-hole bridge will improve the break angle across the saddle,
I have understood this to be the reason for 12/18 hole.

Also, i have first hand experience that strings can slip off a 6 hole as well. ugg. Had to discover the card technique and also to leave a lot of string at the saddle end and then cut when things have stabilized. I haven't had an issue in decades with this approach but still have the reminder on the guitar.

Congrats on the build!
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  #22  
Old 06-25-2021, 03:02 PM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is online now
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Speaking from practical experience of doing some experimenting with tied string bridges, the more holes you add the more likely that your bridge will crack or separate later from a combination of string tension and/or weakened structural design. Each additional row of holes across the rear of the bridge further weakens the design. Still want 18 holes?

Sometimes these designs look great on paper, not so much when you actually make a bridge and put it in service. Twelve or eighteen holes wouldn't be a choice I would make.

Totally off-the-wall idea, but I did a simple 3 string guitar and used through holes at the bridge with a knot / bead lodged against a thin bridge plate on the inside. It's not uncommon to see ukuleles that use this methodology.

It was so simple to string I've often wondered why someone wouldn't use it for a full size nylon-strung guitar. It has a few distinct advantages like no risk of damaging the top while attaching strings and the string through design pulls the bridge and top surface together rather than string force constantly trying to lift the bridge away from the top. The bridge can be much thinner, and there's no knot or string ends to jab your wrist while playing. It makes for a really clean bridge design.

The rear of the bridge can be reduced in thickness, decreasing its mass, and the thinner rear deck of the bridge allows the string to have a solid break angle over the saddle.

The knot / bead method uses a stopper knot that is much more resistant to slipping, and won't damage the top even if it comes loose.

Incidentally, on my Cordoba crossover I simply use a couple of layers of the larger size post-a-notes at the rear of the bridge when re-stringing. This protects the top from any risk of damage. Peel them up when you know your tie is sound and not slipping.

Stopper knot:

In practice the string is pushed through the top, pulled out the sound hole, the bead added, and the knot is tied in the string end. The bead and knot are then pulled up against the thin bridge plate and the string attached to the tuning machine.



My lil' 3 string:


Last edited by Rudy4; 06-25-2021 at 03:16 PM.
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  #23  
Old 06-26-2021, 12:55 AM
nikpearson nikpearson is offline
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Default But the strings beads don’t look very good!

They are certainly practical and have the advantage of improving string break angle on a 6-hole bridge, but they look clunky to me.

The extra holes could potentially weaken the bridge but they are typically 1.5mm in diameter so not much material is removed.

The weight of the bridge on a classical guitar is critical. It can be too light as well as too heavy. I was involved in a ‘guitar race’ at college where groups of student built a guitar in 5 days. One sounded really poor, which we speculated might be down to using cherry as a bridge material (part of the Leonardo Guitar Project using sustainable woods). Adding weight to the bridge dramatically improved the sound of that instrument.

One of my tutors makes classical instruments almost exclusively and in recent years has preferred a 12-hole bridge design. If there were issues with weak bridges he’d not be doing it.

It’s fascinating that you’re encountering such polarised opinions on the bridge design. I’d still go with a 12-hole bridge and will be using it again on my current build, a very traditional looking guitar with cedar and Nomex double-top (laminated). Now that’s an instrument where I really don’t want a string gouge in the soft cedar outer skin as it’s only 0.6mm thick above the Nomex!
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  #24  
Old 06-26-2021, 07:03 AM
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One solution to the 12 hole bridge structural/mass concern being discussed is to create a thin end plate out of a very hard wood in the bridge. A very light bridge blank of Brazilian RW was used to create the bridge. A 1 mm thick end plate with 12 holes is made from African Blackwood (on average, > 30% harder and denser) to add strength and some mass.

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Last edited by iim7V7IM7; 06-26-2021 at 10:33 AM.
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  #25  
Old 06-26-2021, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7 View Post
One solution to the 12 hole bridge structural/mass concern being discussed is to create a thin end plate out of a very hard wood in the bridge. A very light bridge blank of Brazilian RW was used to create the bridge. A 1 mm thick end plate with 12 holes is made from African Blackwood (on average, > 30% harder and denser) to add strength and some mass.

That's really good advice, thanks.

I've sort of agreed with Steve now that it will be a 12 hole...but it's not a standard shape as I find these rectangular bridges fine on a Spanish instrument from 1880...but not really very modern and seeing as this is a crossover I want it to look quite fresh as well as sounding modern.
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  #26  
Old 06-26-2021, 03:13 PM
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I understand your feelings regarding the bridge, but this bridge actually is on my non-traditional, oval hole, cutaway, nylon hybrid. It is a Honduran Rosewood carved back with a Carpathian spruce top with a 1-15/16” nut. Not very Torres 1880’s…





Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamski View Post
That's really good advice, thanks.

I've sort of agreed with Steve now that it will be a 12 hole...but it's not a standard shape as I find these rectangular bridges fine on a Spanish instrument from 1880...but not really very modern and seeing as this is a crossover I want it to look quite fresh as well as sounding modern.
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  #27  
Old 06-26-2021, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7 View Post
I understand your feelings regarding the bridge, but this bridge actually is on my non-traditional, oval hole, cutaway, nylon hybrid. It is a Honduran Rosewood carved back with a Carpathian spruce top with a 1-15/16” nut. Not very Torres 1880’s…
Definitely not Torres!
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  #28  
Old 06-26-2021, 05:50 PM
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Default Good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7 View Post
One solution to the 12 hole bridge structural/mass concern being discussed is to create a thin end plate out of a very hard wood in the bridge. A very light bridge blank of Brazilian RW was used to create the bridge. A 1 mm thick end plate with 12 holes is made from African Blackwood (on average, > 30% harder and denser) to add strength and some mass.

I might just try this on my next guitar. Ebony species and African Blackwood is too dense for a whole bridge but as reinforcing plate it could work well. I’ve also seen brass tubing used to line the string holes. This reinforces the hole and also adds some mass.

Thanks for the pointer.
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  #29  
Old 06-27-2021, 02:38 AM
jonnymosco jonnymosco is offline
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There is also the Yulong Guo bridge. Actually hollowed out each side to reduce the mass, which is just about visible in the photo.



I'm surprised you are going for traditional fan bracing, lattice would be closer to the sound and feel of a steel string.

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  #30  
Old 06-27-2021, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by jonnymosco View Post

I'm surprised you are going for traditional fan bracing, lattice would be closer to the sound and feel of a steel string.
It is fan braced...but I think it will be quite a modern sound.

We shall see!
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