Nylon Crossover Question [just one]

[sandy99]

Interesting discussion!!! I came to nylon via steel string - and feel right now that I won't return anytime soon to steel... Hard to express in words exactly what I mean by saying I can hear the strengths and weaknesses of the flat fretboard... could be a lot of factors beyond the fretboard leading to this perception. Am playing my nylon with lots of techniques (from delicate fingerstyle to hard strumming), but one I love is certain strumming patterns, sometimes pretty aggressive, where the unique character of the classical really seems to come out. A dramatically different sound than steel - yes, sure, part of that is the strings. Part is the build, bracing, less string tension etc. But part feels due to how the strings are pressed on the fretboard, and thus the Q about the flat fretboard...

It's also possible that I have no idea what I'm talking about. But I've learned lots about crossovers in this post!

Maybe the real question is: how does a flat fretboard influence tone? [noting how subjective "tone" is...]. If you took the exact same guitar and put a radiused fretboard on one and a flat on the other, would you expect any tonal differences? Or is the shape of the fretboard more a player preference issue?

[Gitfiddlemann]

Maybe the real question is: how does a flat fretboard influence tone? [noting how subjective "tone" is...]. If you took the exact same guitar and put a radiused fretboard on one and a flat on the other, would you expect any tonal differences? Or is the shape of the fretboard more a player preference issue?

I would say that the player and the soundbox itself have by far the most influence on tone.
The shape of the fretboard as an element has much more to do with player comfort than tone, and that's the basis on which it should be selected.

[sandy99]

yes as I wrote that question about "tone" I realized that Pandora's Box was opening.........

[GGSanders]

Among those who play around with mandolins, more seem to prefer the radiused fretboards of more modern instruments to the traditional flat fretboard of older instruments, but the talk is only about feel/playability, never about tone differences.

And, I suspect that most crossovers come with radiused fretboards because it will make their playability more familiar to their market, those steeled string players who want to add the variety of the nylon string sound, rather than any affect on tone.

With regard to some crossovers lacking in the acoustic arena, but excelling when plugged in, I would only suggest that perhaps they were designed to be played while plugged in and their acoustic attributes were not a consideration when they were designed.

My crossover has a very dynamic acoustic sound, and I am still discovering all of its subtle nuances. I don't think it's tone has anything to do with its radiused fretboard.

[redir]

Originally Posted by GGSanders

Dave T and Redir, what exactly do you mean by "the worst of both worlds?" And, Redir, did you try to build three, or try to like three different crossovers, without success?

Is it that it is neither a steel stringed nor a "pure" classical, therefore doesn't deserve consideration? Or, was the quality of the guitars that you either built or played somewhat lacking?

Just simple questions from someone who played only steel strings for over 40 years, who now also enjoys the sound and touch of a crossover, that's all.

Dave T is the one who mentioned three. I think he tried three different guitars and didn't like any of them. Coincidentally however I did build three. One was for a jazz cat who wanted a cross over to play jazz on. He uses a pick and does hybrid picking. I built that guitar with a flat fret board but it had the narrower profile. HE could not decide whether he wanted it flat or radius and finally decided flat and in that case it would have been easier to put a radius on the board if he didn't like it rather then make a radiused board flat, if that makes sense.

The next one I had just built with no buyer. Some one eventually bought it but I have not heard from him since.

The last one was another experiment in building my first double top instrument. I kept that one myself as I do with any guitar that I build as a tutorial for myself to learn. Funny thing about this guitar is, someone recently posted a thread asking if on one day you like a guitar and on another day you hate it. That fits this guitar to a tee and I just don't get it.

When I say worst of both worlds I mean that personally. For me personally. The cross over seems to me to be a jack of all trades and master of none. When I try to play classical on it I find the strings too close together. When I try to play blues it just doesn't sound quite right... and so on.

So basically I'd rather just have one or the other.

Again, that's my personal take on it. The cross over I built for the jazz cat was nice, he liked it a lot. He is also a teacher and he had a student who went on to great success and notoriety who remembered that guitar and bothered and pestered him so much to buy it that he finally gave in years later and sold the guitar to his former student who is happy as hell with it. He's also a jazz player and I do think that style guitar does well with that style of playing. I could have built him another guitar and it was even suggested to him that I do so but no, he wanted that ONE guitar and finally got it

So moral of the story is if you find a guitar you like then well... there ya go.

[Pitar]

Originally Posted by redir

I've built both classical's and cross overs with flat and radius boards. It all depends. Seems to me though (correct me if I am wrong) that cross overs are mostly desired by those who want to go from steel string playing to nylon rather then the other way round. In that case I would suspect that a slight radius would be more popular. My personal preference is flat on classical. The radius I use on a classical if desired is 20in which is very slight but noticeable.

And to be honest with you I find cross overs to be the worst of both worlds

Per your last statement, I would agree for the unplugged sound. I would not buy a cross-over for anything but the plugged sound.

My preference is the sound of amplified nylon over steel strings, with the playability of a narrower, radiused board. That combo for me provides endurance, better playability and crowd-reaching quality sound.

I've tried numerous on-board systems for steel string guitars. You can only get so much tonal quality from an acoustic SBT or UST under steel strings before you need to be honest with yourself and switch to an acoustic modeling mag pup instead.

Piezo is going to crap out at elevated levels and the feedback factor alone defeats confidence. I can fight it well enough with the Fishman SA220 I use but prefer to simply banish it altogether with nylon strings that, unlike steel strings, aren't frequency absorbing transmitters exciting the top in conjunction with the sensitive SBT arrays of, say, the K&K PWM arrangement. That's double-trouble making the choice of nylon an advantageous by-product by virtue of its more attenuating properties.

I also play a flat classical board but I won't resolve it as the easier playing guitar over the cross-over. Note for note, level for level I think the classical sounds better than the cross-over plugged but it's a marginal gain that's not worth compromising the cross-over's better playability.

[H165]

I recommend test-driving the old (cypress or rosewood - NOT the maple) FCWE Gypsy Kings and the Carvin AC375 cedar-top before giving up on crossovers.

[Norman2]

Hi, This is a very interesting discussion so I'll put my two cents worth.
I am one that believes that putting a radiused 48mm neck on a classic
body is a sin. A true classical guitar should always have a 52mm flat
neck. Hauser and all the old spanish luthiers are probably rolling
in their graves. Just my opinion. Regards
Norman2

Cordoba C10
Cordoba F7

[redir]

Originally Posted by Pitar

Per your last statement, I would agree for the unplugged sound. I would not buy a cross-over for anything but the plugged sound.

My preference is the sound of amplified nylon over steel strings, with the playability of a narrower, radiused board. That combo for me provides endurance, better playability and crowd-reaching quality sound.

I've tried numerous on-board systems for steel string guitars. You can only get so much tonal quality from an acoustic SBT or UST under steel strings before you need to be honest with yourself and switch to an acoustic modeling mag pup instead.

Piezo is going to crap out at elevated levels and the feedback factor alone defeats confidence. I can fight it well enough with the Fishman SA220 I use but prefer to simply banish it altogether with nylon strings that, unlike steel strings, aren't frequency absorbing transmitters exciting the top in conjunction with the sensitive SBT arrays of, say, the K&K PWM arrangement. That's double-trouble making the choice of nylon an advantageous by-product by virtue of its more attenuating properties.

I also play a flat classical board but I won't resolve it as the easier playing guitar over the cross-over. Note for note, level for level I think the classical sounds better than the cross-over plugged but it's a marginal gain that's not worth compromising the cross-over's better playability.

Well said...

[Bugeyed]

Originally Posted by Dave T

Really? That has not been my experience. Flat finger boards are, and as far as I know always have been flat.

Dave

Hard to argue with that statement!
kev

[acoustictone]

I believe that the flat board of a true classical is really more for the right hand. Think about it. Because of flat nut and board the strings are level. This makes it easier for the right hand to negotiate the strings. The crossover radius neck is more familiar for the steel string player.