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  #61  
Old 02-09-2010, 10:03 AM
BuleriaChk BuleriaChk is offline
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I think Heisenberg's uncertainty principle applies to whether any of these vertically configured systems are "Line Arrrays"... (the closer you look at them, the less clear it becomes...)
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:10 AM
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Thanks tons for all the feedback. I can't say it moved me any closer to choosing a given upgrade/unit, but it certainly saved my wife a thousand dollars, and so she is especially grateful for all the contrasting views

The following will probably keep me from making an intelligent choice very soon:

a) I don't think hearing any of these units first hand (ear) in a store will really help me out. I'm sure they all sound great in quiet settings, but of course when I play in a quiet setting I don't really need much sound reinforcement; if the venue is as quiet as your average music store, the audience can in fact hear my acoustic guitar and vox without much amplification in the first place.

More importantly, my issue is hearing myself on stage when I have a noisy audience, and I don't see a music shop accurately replicating that scenario. During band practice I just use my lil Fostex studio monitors, which sound killer diller at that volume, but that doesn't tell me how they'd function in a room with 100 people having fun....

b) Related to this, as alohachris pointed out, most of the first hand reviews, while very well thought out and useful, have been posted by people only using the units for guitar, not guitar and vox, in mellow/quiet venues.

c) Part of me wonders whether I really *want* a unit that disperses sound very evenly -- a la a real line array unit like a Bose. Bear with me: if the audience is being loud and, as usual the really attentive listeners are sitting up front*, is it perhaps a *benefit* that there is more perceived volume on stage and up front vs. in back? In a loud room, does more volume onstage help drown out the loud table and the espresso machine?

Or is that bassackward logic? But if I'm projecting equally well to the table in the back, which is happily chatting away, won't they just chat louder? Forcing me to turn up...forcing them to..... ??

(*exception and note to self: get wife to sit in the back, not the front, because she is the worst offender )

Last edited by tdrake; 02-09-2010 at 10:16 AM.
  #63  
Old 02-09-2010, 10:45 AM
FingerPlucked FingerPlucked is offline
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Originally Posted by tdrake View Post
c) Part of me wonders whether I really *want* a unit that disperses sound very evenly -- a la a real line array unit like a Bose. Bear with me: if the audience is being loud and, as usual the really attentive listeners are sitting up front*, is it perhaps a *benefit* that there is more perceived volume on stage and up front vs. in back? In a loud room, does more volume onstage help drown out the loud table and the espresso machine?

Or is that bassackward logic? But if I'm projecting equally well to the table in the back, which is happily chatting away, won't they just chat louder? Forcing me to turn up...forcing them to..... ??

(*exception and note to self: get wife to sit in the back, not the front, because she is the worst offender )
I used to wonder about that too, although from a slightly different angle. I wondered if it didn't make sense to have more volume up front so that the people who wanted to listen could gravitate toward the front and the ones who wanted to yak could head toward the back. My experience has been that it doesn't work that way; people just sit wherever they feel like sitting, and then talk or not without any real consideration of the others around them.

I read some advice (on this forum, I think) that you shouldn't try to compete with them. It won't work -- they make noise, so you turn up, so they just get louder.

Line arrays are nice, but I think an even more important aspect is to have the sound system behind you, like the line array guys suggest. Getting the sound just right with speaker mains out in front of you is a lot of work, if you even try. Having an amp or system behind you at least lets you know what's being sent out to the audience, and can be tweaked as you go, evaluated, and maybe tweaked again.
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  #64  
Old 02-09-2010, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by tdrake View Post
...note to self: get wife to sit in the back, not the front, because she is the worst offender )
Ah, NOW the issue is clearing up!

Perhaps you should be considering an inexpensive video camera, some cable and a small TV, so that you can arrange for her an 'overflow' room where she can watch or not, listen or not, and talk as much or as loudly as she likes.

See? Problem solved, without a new PA system!

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Old 02-09-2010, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by FingerPlucked View Post
I think an even more important aspect is to have the sound system behind you, like the line array guys suggest. Getting the sound just right with speaker mains out in front of you is a lot of work, if you even try. Having an amp or system behind you at least lets you know what's being sent out to the audience, and can be tweaked as you go, evaluated, and maybe tweaked again.
That's pretty much the consideration that's driving my thinking, too.

And what's making me lean more toward the BagAmp than the Solo Amp is when I read (I think it was Larry who posted this) that the former seems to serve this "behind the player" task better than the latter -- that, indeed, the Solo Amp could be uncomfortably loud when positioned behind the performer, whereas the BagAmp wasn't.
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  #66  
Old 02-09-2010, 11:21 AM
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I'll second that having the system behind you is essential. If you put the speakers out in front and try to manage the sound from the stage, it's just a guessing game. Even if you expand the system to the point where you have monitors on stage and mains out in front, sending the same mix to both, it's tough. You might be able to get the relative levels of guitar/vox right, but as far as EQ and other things, it's a crapshoot.

Don't get me wrong. I can see obvious benefits to having a different mix on stage versus FOH, but I don't see how that can be successfully achieved without a soundman.

That being said, if you have decent mics, I think you achieve serviceable levels from non-line array systems setup behind you, though may need to be a little further offset.
  #67  
Old 02-09-2010, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cotten View Post
Ah, NOW the issue is clearing up!

Perhaps you should be considering an inexpensive video camera, some cable and a small TV, so that you can arrange for her an 'overflow' room where she can watch or not, listen or not, and talk as much or as loudly as she likes.

See? Problem solved, without a new PA system!

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The first step in solving a problem is to define it accurately.
Hey, wait, who's side are you on? Actually, a video camera won't work and here's why: we tried to make a video on our normal camera this Friday and said wife even gave me a lil tripod for Christmas to make sure the video would look good. I remembered to charge the battery and erase the memory card.

Even more miraculously I remembered to bring the camera! And the tripod!

And if that wasn't incredible enough, she remembered to take out the camera and try to make a video! But...

She couldn't get the camera to work, and she concluded that I must have forgotten to put the battery back in...

...which was not the case; I'd simply put it in backwards. Ah, a perfect collusion of tech-nidiocy.

Now you can see why I'm ignoring the technical debate of what is or isn't a true line array

Happy ending: a pro photographer friend of our brought his incredible, Leica lensed Lumix and took some incredible shots, and then passed the camera off to said wonderful wife who took even more. Another friend of mine has one of those as well and, man, those are great cameras!

td
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Old 02-09-2010, 02:33 PM
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I like the idea of having the sound behind me also and is a reason why the SoloAmp fell out of the running for me. But after listening to the comparison thread, there is no way I would ever buy a BagAmp without listening to it first. The Compact gave a much stronger showing IMO and seems to have the line-array benefits of having the unit behind you from the reviews I have read.
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Old 02-09-2010, 02:40 PM
FingerPlucked FingerPlucked is offline
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Originally Posted by Herb Hunter View Post
Earlier, I posted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Hunter
To me, what defines a line array, apart from the vertical arrangement of the speakers, is the rate at which volume falls off with distance. If the Compact's volume drop off rate is not better than that of the SoloAmp, then I'll have to concede that you are right.
Based on the latest post by that Bose employee at the Bose forum, it is beginning to look like I may have to concede that you were right. (I'm waiting for one more reply from Ken.)
Hey, wait a minute. Herb, are you HLH on the Bose forum? Are you the guy who's been trying since last April to get a straight answer to the question of whether or not the Compact is a line array?

If not, then never mind.

If you are, then

HAH!!! ... That'd be pretty funny. (Not that I wouldn't be sympathetic. But it'd still be funny.)

Also funny -- what are the odds that I'd find your thread in a search for anything that might shed new light on this?
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  #70  
Old 02-09-2010, 02:42 PM
FingerPlucked FingerPlucked is offline
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Originally Posted by BoB/335 View Post
I like the idea of having the sound behind me also and is a reason why the SoloAmp fell out of the running for me. But after listening to the comparison thread, there is no way I would ever buy a BagAmp without listening to it first. The Compact gave a much stronger showing IMO and seems to have the line-array benefits of having the unit behind you from the reviews I have read.
Bob, you really shouldn't buy any of them without hearing them first. Better yet would be to listen to as many of them as you can before buying one.
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  #71  
Old 02-09-2010, 03:01 PM
BuleriaChk BuleriaChk is offline
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Nuts, I gotta get out of here. I just wrote a long message here (edited to this one) saying that ear fatigue has NEVER been an issue with me (at least so far), with the SoloAmp a couple of feet behind and to the right, but realize that my instruments, gear, and style are probably very different from most guitarists/vocalists here.

And, although I am suspicious of the "dispersion" claims made for the BagAmp (and Compact) in such small power configurations, based on years of trying to amplify my own guitar with NUMEROUS different amps, preamps, pickups etc.., and my own experience with the SoloAmp, I MUST withhold judgement until I hear the differences for myself...

After all, the main reasons (other than the sound quality) I like the SA is the portablity of a stand based (raised) system, and the all-in-one configuration of its various functions.., not the supposed extra dispersion I get in small venues due to its "line" configuration...

So I don't really belong here - if I knew how to delete my impressions in this thread, I would..... I wonder if there is a Fishman SoloAmp forum somewhere? Or is this as good as it gets?....

Last edited by BuleriaChk; 02-09-2010 at 03:42 PM.
  #72  
Old 02-09-2010, 05:13 PM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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Bob, you really shouldn't buy any of them without hearing them first. Better yet would be to listen to as many of them as you can before buying one.
I probably didn't word my post like I should have. Of course I agree.
  #73  
Old 02-09-2010, 07:01 PM
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I'll second that having the system behind you is essential.
I'm with everyone on this...tho part of our problem is that both the bassist and the harp guys play thru their own amps, which is logical, but none of us can hear each other very well AND of course the overall house mix is a guessing game. That second problem is easy enough to fix by getting people in the house to tell us how the mix sounds...so for all the benefits of an ultra portable system, I'm guessing I'll still want my big mixer so I can pump a lil bass into my own mix, just so we hear each other.

Perhaps a true(ish) line array would help them hear me, tho.

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Old 02-09-2010, 08:18 PM
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I had a conversation with a friend of mine recently on not exactly this matter, but a similar matter. The OP asked about line arrays versus compact amps. I'm personally weighing the options of the "line arrays" versus a pair of compact powered speakers (specifically looking at the QSC K8s and EV ZxA1s). Either way, I plan to run through a mixer, so the question I was asking was whether I would be better off with a pair of powered speakers or a compact line-array type setup.

Since the speakers I was looking at were 8", the "schleppability" wasn't that different (although the powered speakers would also require stands, but it's still in the same ballpark, at least). Also, the cost ballpark is *fairly* similar. At the low end, you have the BagAmp at $699 and at the high end, you have a pair of QSC K8s at about $1200. In between are the EVs, the Bose Compact and the SoloAmp.

I was starting to lean toward the powered speakers. I figured that they might provide greater flexibility of venue, and actually be suitable at slightly larger venues than the other units, if the need arose (and hopefully, it will). I've also heard good things about the sounds of the compact powered speakers mentioned.

I've been using a Yamaha StagePAS 300 system to date, and I've had pretty good luck with feedback and sound positioning the speakers behind me at opposite sides of the performance area (say, 15-20 feet apart). The sound has been decent, and the feedback issues have been few, but the power is limited. It's fine for the coffee shops we're currently playing, but I don't know if it would fly for some of the outdoor patio gigs I hope to round up this spring and sumer. I reasoned that having a comparable system, but with more power would be just the trick.

However, what my friend pointed out, and I believe to be true, though I have no empirical evidence (yet) is this:

When I'm near the top of the StagePAS' output limits, I'm probably also near the point at which feedback becomes an issue. If I had speakers with more power, as I push them beyond the point of the StagePAS' capabilities, I'm likely to encounter feedback. What this means is (if true), I will have to push the speakers to the front to achieve those higher volumes.

As I may have mentioned before, mixing from the stage for front-positioned speakers is a crap shoot, and not something I want to do, not to mention, it would require the need for monitors in addition, which means more gear, more setup, more stuff I'm too lazy to do.

Consequently, I've decided the best thing for us now is to stick with one of the "line-array" setups, as I feel it will be adequate if not good or great for our indoor gigs, and should the need arise, either add a second one of the same unit (whatever that turns out to be), or get 1 or 2 of the aforementioned compact speakers to run as an extension, boost, what have you when we need to power. In fact, it's also a legit option to simply keep my StagePAS system and use that at FOH if the need arises.
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Old 02-10-2010, 07:25 AM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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I had a conversation with a friend of mine recently on not exactly this matter, but a similar matter. The OP asked about line arrays versus compact amps. I'm personally weighing the options of the "line arrays" versus a pair of compact powered speakers (specifically looking at the QSC K8s and EV ZxA1s). Either way, I plan to run through a mixer, so the question I was asking was whether I would be better off with a pair of powered speakers or a compact line-array type setup.

Since the speakers I was looking at were 8", the "schleppability" wasn't that different (although the powered speakers would also require stands, but it's still in the same ballpark, at least). Also, the cost ballpark is *fairly* similar. At the low end, you have the BagAmp at $699 and at the high end, you have a pair of QSC K8s at about $1200. In between are the EVs, the Bose Compact and the SoloAmp.

I was starting to lean toward the powered speakers. I figured that they might provide greater flexibility of venue, and actually be suitable at slightly larger venues than the other units, if the need arose (and hopefully, it will). I've also heard good things about the sounds of the compact powered speakers mentioned.

I've been using a Yamaha StagePAS 300 system to date, and I've had pretty good luck with feedback and sound positioning the speakers behind me at opposite sides of the performance area (say, 15-20 feet apart). The sound has been decent, and the feedback issues have been few, but the power is limited. It's fine for the coffee shops we're currently playing, but I don't know if it would fly for some of the outdoor patio gigs I hope to round up this spring and sumer. I reasoned that having a comparable system, but with more power would be just the trick.

However, what my friend pointed out, and I believe to be true, though I have no empirical evidence (yet) is this:

When I'm near the top of the StagePAS' output limits, I'm probably also near the point at which feedback becomes an issue. If I had speakers with more power, as I push them beyond the point of the StagePAS' capabilities, I'm likely to encounter feedback. What this means is (if true), I will have to push the speakers to the front to achieve those higher volumes.

As I may have mentioned before, mixing from the stage for front-positioned speakers is a crap shoot, and not something I want to do, not to mention, it would require the need for monitors in addition, which means more gear, more setup, more stuff I'm too lazy to do.

Consequently, I've decided the best thing for us now is to stick with one of the "line-array" setups, as I feel it will be adequate if not good or great for our indoor gigs, and should the need arise, either add a second one of the same unit (whatever that turns out to be), or get 1 or 2 of the aforementioned compact speakers to run as an extension, boost, what have you when we need to power. In fact, it's also a legit option to simply keep my StagePAS system and use that at FOH if the need arises.

This could have been a post that I could have written. I've been bouncing back and forth myself. (Except that I don't have a Stage-Pass)

There is someone here who has one of the line-array systems as well as a K speaker (or two). An option that sounds ideal to me. The Stage-Pass would be more to carry around but you already have it.
So when the time comes I will most likely opt for the line-array(ish) unit that has the best sound with the most power with the best dispersion and that sits well behind the performer without being too loud and then later get 1 K speaker (K-8 or K10) as that little speaker would be nothing extra to carry around to have in the car if needed for more power and would also make a great backup in case of falure of the main unit. (Either way I also expect to have a small mixer probably the Yamaha mg82cx or 124cx.
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