How to Choose Replacement Tuners?

[ChrisN]

How do I go about choosing a set of replacement tuners for my old Japanese Martin OM knockoff? Typical paddle headstock with tuners screwed to the back.

The seller replaced the originals with cheap ones that required different screw hole placement, so now each tuner hole is surrounded by 4 holes. The guitar's manufacturer is long out of business and original replacements don't appear to be an option.

I understand the center post diameter has to be the same as the hole size, but how do I choose the screw hole pattern so I can use one or the other set of existing holes? Is there a trick to the trade I should know? I don't want to buy a set that's different and then have to add yet another set of holes to the back of the headstock.

I like the guitar and am not averse to spending some $$ on decent tuners.

I'd have to buy online, sight unseen. Any help re: how to approach the process appreciated.

[Tico]

I know Schaller's website has technical drawings with detailed dimensions of everything including screw hole locations and diameter of the holes that must be drilled into the guitar's head.

Maybe other makers do to.
I'd check the websites for the major brands like Goto, Grover, Schaller, Waverly, etc.

[Tico]

http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_..._Pegheads.html

Stewmac is another source for info, and they sell many brands.

Click on "Specs".

[saxonblue]

Go to StewMac's website & you have an almost endless choice of replacements be it vintage style, open back, sealed whatever.

The good thing is as you view each tuner there is dimensioned plan & section views so you can analyse the spacing, screw patterns, post diameters etc. of each one & work out from there which one suits your guitar best if you want to minimise/eliminate any further mods.

http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_...ning_Machines/

Edit: Ooops, Tico beat me there.

[5th Element]

Recently I went through this with a set of vintage-style open-gear tuners. Gotoh publishes (as presumably do others) dimensional drawings. They're right there on each product page. I just compared Gotoh tuner variations with what I had until I found a match in the style I wanted. The keys to success were measuring accurately, and taking the time to clearly understand what I was looking at.

Edit: Heh, wandered away a couple of minutes while writing this and everyone beat me to it.

[Brucebubs]

Can you post a picture showing the back of the headstock with the current tuners?

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by Brucebubs

Can you post a picture showing the back of the headstock with the current tuners?

The lower shots with the chrome buttons are of the original stock tuners (exemplar from a different guitar), while the top pic with the green buttons are the current cheap tuners. I haven't disassembled them yet, but you can see the edge of the original upper-screw holes that point to the middle of the of the headstock - I suppose it's possible the bottom hole was reused for the cheapos?? Unlikely, from the bottom holes' distance from the edge. You can see the original chrome-button tuners have the screws offset from top to bottom, while the cheapos' screws are directly over one another. The cheapos also stick out too far and hit the inside of the hard case.

Ideally, I'd like to use the original screwholes (offset screws), and bring the buttons in closer to the headstock, with a good replacement tuner that holds tension.

Here are the current tuners to be replaced:



Exemplar tuners from same model guitar:

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by 5th Element

Recently I went through this with a set of vintage-style open-gear tuners. Gotoh publishes (as presumably do others) dimensional drawings. They're right there on each product page. I just compared Gotoh tuner variations with what I had until I found a match in the style I wanted. The keys to success were measuring accurately, and taking the time to clearly understand what I was looking at.

Edit: Heh, wandered away a couple of minutes while writing this and everyone beat me to it.

That's helpful info (as was the others') - Before diving into measuring and hoping "theirs matched mine," I wanted to make sure there wasn't some well-known method to getting this done that was more assured of getting a good result the first time. I'll check out the referenced sites and get to measurin'.

[Brucebubs]

Good pictures.
My 1st choice would be open gear Grover Sta-Tite 18:1's (avoid the cheaper 14:1's) if the 2 locating screws match those 'Kluson' type you have on now.
- I see from the spec drawing on the StewMac link that the screw holes are 1.010" (25.65 mm) apart on the Sta-Tites.
I have them on one of my guitars and they've been excellent.


If you want to spend a little more then look at Gotoh tuners and if you really want to go crazy then check out Waverly tuners (3x the cost of Grovers!)

Typically, open gear tuners use a 11/32" (8.75 mm) post hole in the headstock and sealed gear tuners use a larger 13/32" (10.0 mm) hole.
If the existing hole is the larger size you need to purchase a set of 'reduction' bushes for open gear tuners.
StewMac has them.... but you may be lucky and the Grovers might just fit those existing bushings?
http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_...SABEgKbTvD_BwE

And this is the link for tuner reduction bushes - available in round and hex shapes.
http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_...r_Bushing.html

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by Brucebubs

Good pictures.
My 1st choice would be open gear Grover Sta-Tite 18:1's if the 2 locating screws match those 'Kluson' type you have on now.
- I see from the spec drawing on the StewMac link that the screw holes are 1.010" (25.65 mm) apart on the Sta-Tites.
Typically, open gear tuners use a 11/32" (8.75 mm) post hole in the headstock and sealed gear tuners use a larger 13/32" (10.0 mm) hole.
If the existing hole is the larger size you need to purchase a set of 'reduction' bushes for open gear tuners.
StewMac has them.
http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_...SABEgKbTvD_BwE

And this is the link for tuner reduction bushes - available in round and hex shapes.
http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_...r_Bushing.html

Bruce,

Thanks so much for the direction and recommendation - that helps to narrow what I've learned today is a very wide field.

The brand-unknown cheapos ("$20 on ebay") were installed by the luthier who sold me the guitar, which came to him with a broken original tuner. I'll dig into it this week, but at this point I don't know the hole size, or whether he's oversized it, already used a bushing, etc.

The Grover mount screw hole span of 25.06mm appears to match my cheapos' span. The Grovers are a bit longer/taller by 2mm, which would move the tuners closer to each other by 1mm, but the cheapos have 3mm between them, so that should work.

Pending confirmation on the hole, bushings needed, etc., I'll order the Grovers and be happy. Thanks again for the guidance.

[Brucebubs]

I've added a little more to that post.
You might be able to leave those existing bushings in - if the Grovers fit them OK, that would make the swap a lot easier.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by Brucebubs

I've added a little more to that post.
You might be able to leave those existing bushings in - if the Grovers fit them OK, that would make the swap a lot easier.

Thanks for the extra info. I just reset the mystery neck joint on this guitar and thought I'd be able to take a breather from learning "new stuff," but baby needs new tuners, so onward I go. I do love the guitar.

So, I dug into it and here's what I've got:

The cheapo POST is 5.9mm (not that far off Grovers' 6.32mm, so maybe my measurement error, but I did it a few times).

The HOLE IN THE BACK OF THE HEADSTOCK is about 8.55mm (averaged results).

The INTERIOR OF THE EXISTING BUSHING measured from the front is 6.17mm.

If my measurements are accurate (or reaallly close), do you agree that I don't need additional bushings and can simply drop the Grovers into the existing setup, or am I missing something?? Thanks Bruce.

[Brucebubs]

If the Grover string post fits the existing bushings then you can leave them in - if they don't fit then you'll need to use the bushings that come with the Grovers - I don't think you need the 'reduction' bushings.

Now removing push-fit bushings can be tricky - it's easy to take out a lot of wood if you don't know what you're doing - believe me, I learned the hard way.

There are several youtube demo's, here's the simplest; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_JOFOlmWaw

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by Brucebubs

If the Grover string post fits the existing bushings then you can leave them in - if they don't fit then you'll need to use the bushings that come with the Grovers - I don't think you need the 'reduction' bushings.

Now removing push-fit bushings can be tricky - it's easy to take out a lot of wood if you don't know what you're doing - believe me, I learned the hard way.

There are several youtube demo's, here's the simplest; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_JOFOlmWaw

I think I can handle that. I'll probably use Grover's bushings just to keep things in spec. Thanks again Bruce.

[jseth]

Chris;

Earlier this year, I replaced the newer black Schallers on my old Marc Angus acoustic; those Schallers had so much slop in the gears that they were an absolute PITA! And I had bought them because the guitar originally came with Schallers (built in 1979); I only got the black ones because I wanted to change the look of the guitar to accompany the new fret board I had installed...

Anyway (sorry for the digression!), my local tech had a set of these tuners called Ratio tuners... I read up on them, liked what I read and the concept, so I went for them.

They are WONDERFUL machines... especially if you use various tunings, they would be a boon... I don't really use alternate tunings much, but the tuners themselves are very solid, very responsive, just great tuning machines.

They are a tad heavier than the Schallers were, but not horribly so. They come with several "templates" so you can fit them to many different hole patterns... the template gizmos look a LOT like what is surrounding the original tuners on the Conn that you pictured.

I'm fairly certain that those old tuners weren't the original ones, but it's just my best guess. Conn acoustic guitars, by the way, were NOT just crappy Martin knockoffs. They made some really good stuff, back in the day, although they were largely overlooked by most... every one I have played has been a very nice sounding and playing acoustic guitar...

Check out those Ratio tuners... but good luck with whatever you choose to use!