ToneDexter vs Baggs VoicePrint ?

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by Gordon Currie

I assumed TD calculated the peaks based on the guitar response, not the microphone response.

I would've thought so, too.

It seems that doing that would result in better feedback resistance?

I'm guessing there must be a good reason for the decision.

[James May]

Originally Posted by Gordon Currie

Thanks James for clarifying my somewhat inaccurate response.

I assumed TD calculated the peaks based on the guitar response, not the microphone response. I also assumed the Ultratonic only worked with one peak.

It seems that using both, one could end up with an extremely feedback resistant instrument that didn't have audible artifacts.

I suspect there may be a disconnect in terminology, as I don't think I'm getting my point across very well.

ToneDexter can only learn the difference between PICKUP SIGNAL and MIC SIGNAL. If a UST, the pickup signal has only a little of the guitar top's resonances in it, it's mostly string pickup. If an SBT, then the pickup has much more of the guitar top's lower resonances in it.

The MIC RESPONSE and MIC SIGNAL are different, and that may be the source of the confusion.

The MIC RESPONSE is defined as the frequency response of the microphone itself, independent of what it is listening too. In other words, its coloration or lack thereof.

In the case of ToneDexter, the MIC SIGNAL is what the guitar sounds like from that vantage point, colored by the frequency response of the mic if it is not very flat.

What ToneDexter can do is process the pickup signal to sound like the mic signal. The mic will hear all of the guitar's personality which includes all the resonances that are there at that vantage point, whether the pickup signal contains any of those resonances or not. Either way it works the same.

The variable feedback mitigation control, when turned all the way up, will flatten those resonances that exist in the WaveMap below about 440Hz. If its an SBT, there will still be some left after this flattening, but usually not enough to cause big problems unless you have a really feedback prone SBT.

[jennconducts]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Thanks, Jenn, you've helped renew my interest in further experimentation with my ToneDexter that's been sitting idle in its box for over two years. I do think the ToneDexter is a marvelous device and has a lot of potential for players taking the time to get a resulting WaveMap tone to sound the way they want their amplified guitar to sound.

P.S. How is your SoloAmp holding up as I seem to remember you got one several years ago?

Hi there! I sold the SoloAmp long ago and went with the Bose L1Mod2 for that type of application. The SoloAmp had several things going for it, and it was very useful at the time. I liked it a lot. I played demos for him at the NAMM Show, etc. But upon hearing the Bose, there were some things with the SoloAmp I just couldn't get around, including some audio concerns and frankly, some aspects about his business.

Cheers!

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by jennconducts

Hi there! I sold the SoloAmp long ago and went with the Bose L1Mod2 for that type of application. The SoloAmp had several things going for it, and it was very useful at the time. I liked it a lot. I played demos for him at the NAMM Show, etc. But upon hearing the Bose, there were some things with the SoloAmp I just couldn't get around, including some audio concerns and frankly, some aspects about his business.

Cheers!

Thanks, Jenn! IMHO, you can't go wrong with a Bose!

[dberch]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

No, the TD unit has the math capability ONBOARD to process an IR in real time and create a new response as you turn the dial. Splitting means that that upper frequency IR can change differently than the lower end, which isbthe source of feedback. It's genius compared to a static IR with post processing EQ applied.

Hi. You're technical expertise is showing. But non-technical people who are actually using say it's big learning curve.

When you say it's "genius" how does that relate to user-friendliness on stage?

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by dberch

Hi. You're technical expertise is showing. But non-technical people who are actually using say it's big learning curve.

When you say it's "genius" how does that relate to user-friendliness on stage?

You make a good point. And in the market it appears in the last year or so the average customer prefers the phone based processing and controls. As the software and apps improve, I suppose any technical challenges will be resolved.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by dberch

Hi. You're technical expertise is showing. But non-technical people who are actually using say it's big learning curve.

When you say it's "genius" how does that relate to user-friendliness on stage?

I'm not sure where the big learning curve idea comes from. There are two phases, training and use.

training: You plug in your guitar and also a mic. You play for about 15 seconds and hit save. Done. Many of the people I've seen complain about this process are the "you mean I have to have a mic?" group, which strikes me as odd that any performing musician wouldn't own or have access to some mic. The other group are those who get excited about the whole thing and want to try lots of mics and lots of mic positions. That's fine, we all go off and explore - what if these strings will sound better, what if I use a heavier/lighter pick, and so on. That's just people wanting to see if they can do better. Maybe you can, maybe you can't. For most, if you just follow the instructions, you'll get a good result. But you will encounter people who don't, just as we encounter people who like/don't like a given guitar.

In use: It's a preamp. You have volume, bass, treble, mute switch. You also have the saved trained wavemap(s) that you can choose between, and also a "character" knob that affects the tone. You have another anti-feedback control. For all knobs, I'd start in a default position and twist them until it sounds good. The "character" knob is kind of a selector - you don't have to understand it, just pick the setting that sounds good. The anti-feedback control reduces body resonance as you turn it up, so just twist it until you have a good balance between feedback and still having some body resonance. If you're not feeding back, just leave it alone.

Compared to lots of gear guitarists use, this seems pretty simple to me.

[leew3]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Compared to lots of gear guitarists use, this seems pretty simple to me.

But we love to complicate things Doug!

[dberch]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'm not sure where the big learning curve idea comes from. There are two phases, training and use.

training: You plug in your guitar and also a mic. You play for about 15 seconds and hit save. Done. Many of the people I've seen complain about this process are the "you mean I have to have a mic?" group, which strikes me as odd that any performing musician wouldn't own or have access to some mic. The other group are those who get excited about the whole thing and want to try lots of mics and lots of mic positions. That's fine, we all go off and explore - what if these strings will sound better, what if I use a heavier/lighter pick, and so on. That's just people wanting to see if they can do better. Maybe you can, maybe you can't. For most, if you just follow the instructions, you'll get a good result. But you will encounter people who don't, just as we encounter people who like/don't like a given guitar.

In use: It's a preamp. You have volume, bass, treble, mute switch. You also have the saved trained wavemap(s) that you can choose between, and also a "character" knob that affects the tone. You have another anti-feedback control. For all knobs, I'd start in a default position and twist them until it sounds good. The "character" knob is kind of a selector - you don't have to understand it, just pick the setting that sounds good. The anti-feedback control reduces body resonance as you turn it up, so just twist it until you have a good balance between feedback and still having some body resonance. If you're not feeding back, just leave it alone.

Compared to lots of gear guitarists use, this seems pretty simple to me.

Hi Doug! I am a Long-time fan and follower of music and your reviews. Thanks for answering my question. Perhaps I can be a bit more specific.

1. I bring two guitars and a banjo to every show with my trio The Tucked in T's. I need to switch instruments multiple times in a single set. What is the procedure for switching instruments in the middle of a set using TD? It seems to me I'll have to reach to the floor to select a guitar/setting every time I switch instruments. True?

2. If I have body / low-register feedback, I know I can address it live with TD. Can I save that setting? If not, then won't I need to dial that out every time I change instruments and then switch back?

Thanks much!
David

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by dberch

Hi Doug! I am a Long-time fan and follower of music and your reviews. Thanks for answering my question. Perhaps I can be a bit more specific.

1. I bring two guitars and a banjo to every show with my trio The Tucked in T's. I need to switch instruments multiple times in a single set. What is the procedure for switching instruments in the middle of a set using TD? It seems to me I'll have to reach to the floor to select a guitar/setting every time I switch instruments. True?

Yes, you'd likely need to switch to a different preset - one tuned for that instrument. Even without using ToneDexter, I'd imagine you might need to make other adjustments, volume, EQ, etc, when changing instruments, so this would be the same kind of thing. Think of ToneDexter as an optimized EQ setting, if you change instruments and want a different EQ for that instrument, you need to switch something. I know people have asked for a footswitch function to advance the patch, but I don't think that's been added. You could check with the Audio Sprockets team.

2. If I have body / low-register feedback, I know I can address it live with TD. Can I save that setting? If not, then won't I need to dial that out every time I change instruments and then switch back?

I don't believe so, but that's not what that control's really for. The raw "wavemap" is optimized for your instrument - that's saved. The anti-feedback control is for adjusting to your environment. As I'm sure you have experienced, feedback is a function of the room, the PA, where you're standing, etc, so that's the control you want to adjust on the fly. The same is true of volume, gain, treble and bass - those aren't saved, they're for adjusting on the gig. What's saved is the signature transformation that "fixes" your pickup to sound more like its acoustic tone. The rest is like any preamp, you have controls for adjusting on the fly to suite the conditions at the gig.

The Baggs Voiceprint also behaves similarly, tho many more parameters are saved, including a 7 band fully-parametric EQ (talk about a learning curve :-).

[dberch]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Yes, you'd likely need to switch to a different preset - one tuned for that instrument. Even without using ToneDexter, I'd imagine you might need to make other adjustments, volume, EQ, etc, when changing instruments, so this would be the same kind of thing. Think of ToneDexter as an optimized EQ setting, if you change instruments and want a different EQ for that instrument, you need to switch something. I know people have asked for a footswitch function to advance the patch, but I don't think that's been added. You could check with the Audio Sprockets team.

All my guitars use similar EQ so that isn't an issue. Except banjo and reso of course. That's one reason why I like K&K so much. Very seldom do I need to change EQ when switching guitars.

[dberch]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I don't believe so, but that's not what that control's really for. The raw "wavemap" is optimized for your instrument - that's saved. The anti-feedback control is for adjusting to your environment. As I'm sure you have experienced, feedback is a function of the room, the PA, where you're standing, etc, so that's the control you want to adjust on the fly. The same is true of volume, gain, treble and bass - those aren't saved, they're for adjusting on the gig. What's saved is the signature transformation that "fixes" your pickup to sound more like its acoustic tone. The rest is like any preamp, you have controls for adjusting on the fly to suite the conditions at the gig.

The Baggs Voiceprint also behaves similarly, tho many more parameters are saved, including a 7 band fully-parametric EQ (talk about a learning curve :-).

I'm well aware of the reasons for low register feedback. Sure, it IS a function of the room, but in my experience, the feedback always occurs at the same frequency. My current setup i just flip the Phase switch and that usually takes care of it. Not saving EQ or feedback settings is an issue for me.

I guess I'm spoiled by my Bose T1 mixer. "Save Scene" and EVERYTHING is saved for immediate recall.

Looks like neither TD or VP are viable for me. Oh, well. I've yet to get a complaint about my live sound.

Cheers,
David

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by dberch

All my guitars use similar EQ so that isn't an issue. Except banjo and reso of course. That's one reason why I like K&K so much. Very seldom do I need to change EQ when switching guitars.

You might get away with a TD or Voiceprint setting for all guitars if you have the same pickups. I have Barbera's in 4 guitars and use the same Wavemap for them all. You give up some nuance - the intent of these things is to capture the sound of the specific guitar - but it can be close enough. Depends on how much you want to get the last ounce of sound quality out compared to the effort. Totally understandable to keep things simple.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by dberch

I'm well aware of the reasons for low register feedback. Sure, it IS a function of the room, but in my experience, the feedback always occurs at the same frequency. My current setup i just flip the Phase switch and that usually takes care of it. Not saving EQ or feedback settings is an issue for me.

What both voiceprint and TD do is different than flipping a phase switch. Both learn the resonant frequencies of your guitar and let you dial that back according to your needs. It's a more sophisticated approach based on analyzing your guitar, so it comes with a corresponding slightly more complex interaction - turning a knob instead of flipping a switch.

I guess I'm spoiled by my Bose T1 mixer. "Save Scene" and EVERYTHING is saved for immediate recall.

Yep, that's pretty handy. Most effects pedals don't do that, or if they do, it's each one individually. There are the Helix systems, which let you load IRs, giving you the same generally ability as TD and Voiceprint (tho you have to make your own IRs), as well as a full suite of effects and EQ, all totally stored and recalled as scenes. I tried the Stomp and hated it, but it seems to be making a number of people here happy.

The Voiceprint, BTW, might come closest to what you want - most parameters are saved, including the anti-feedback setting. They then give you a couple of physical knobs, like the anti-feedback control that lets you override the preset if needed. The possible downside is that if you do want to go beyond the presets you've created for anything more than that, you have to use an app on your phone.

[dberch]

Thank you Doug! I think I'll just keep using my current rig for now.

K&K -> K&K Pure Preamp -> Boss Tu 3 tuner -> Boss EQ 7 for the banjo -> Simple boost pedal for leads, or that one quiet guitar i have -> Bose L1 or AER Compact 6o.

Great discussion and I appreciate your thoughtful answers.

I was really hopeful that ToneDexter could replace my entire rig above. But looks like that's not an option when you take several instruments to about every show.

Someday, If I get brave, I might try the Voiceprint.

Cheers, and Keep Picking!

David