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Old 07-24-2022, 02:53 PM
jpbrooks jpbrooks is offline
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Default ***UPDATE*** - Help for a newbie playing in a band

Hey all. So I have read every thread about amplification and can't seem to figure out what I should do. After playing only alone for 8 years, I am playing in my church band. It's a lot of fun. The band has a full drum set, grand piano, electric organ, keyboard, electric guitar, 5 or 6 singers, and me on acoustic guitar. Here's my experience:

I played a Martin HD-28 with a k&k through a tuner and into a DI (XLR out)
It was bass heavy and very low volume - I could not hear myself in my in ear monitor at all even after asking to be turned up three times.

I played a Martin D-18 with Baggs Anthem. Sounded great! However, it still had a low volume output.

I played my Gibson J-45 with stock element pickup. Great volume output. I could finally hear myself decently, however it definitely has that quack I hear about with UST.

My main question is this...I have a 000-28EC that is my favorite guitar. I love it. It doesn't get played that much though because it doesn't have a pickup. I want to get a pickup for it. I would get the anthem, but I don't want to risk changing anything about the tone or setup. I'm thinking k&k even though I hate the idea of glueing it in. I have heard all about the trance amulet, but I have heard it is a very technical install and since I'm in Mississippi, I doubt I will find someone with experience installing it. So what preamp/DI will give me eq control and increase the output so that the volume is decent.

2nd question that goes with the first, I would like to change the element in the J-45 to an anthem. I would like to use the same DI (eq control) with this pickup as well. What Preamp/DI would work well with both a k&k and an anthem?

Thanks for your help!!

****UPDATE**** - I went with the baggs m80 and it didn't fit in my 000-28ec - see post on 2nd page

Last edited by jpbrooks; 08-08-2022 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 07-24-2022, 03:27 PM
jseth jseth is offline
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I realize that this is not the answer you may want to hear, but, given your situation, I would strongly recommend that you check out a good soundhole magnetic pickup, It's not going to sound all that acoustic-y, but it will give you a much more manageable signal in that rock group format.

Any of those soundboard pickups you mention (K&K, Trance, etc.) are going to be problematic at higher volume levels... the Anthem "might' do okay, but you'd probably be running it nearly fully on the UST portion to avoid excessive feedback - and the Element IS the UST portion of the Anthem pickups.

The most cost effective solution would be to stick with the Element in the J-45, and possibly get a preamp that has the tone shaping capability that you require.

The issue is that, when playing in a 5 or 6 piece group, you really don't want all the rich, full, resonance that a great acoustic tone has... you want something thinner that can "sit" in the mix of all the instruments and voices without adding a whole bunch of lower frequencies. It's a demanding proposition!
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Old 07-24-2022, 03:32 PM
Nymuso Nymuso is offline
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I like DI, that’s the way I play our gigs. But given your situation and given the fact that you’re willing to spend a few bucks, I’d go with a rather small acoustic amp and a DI box, like an Imp II.

If you place your DI before the amp, the sound guy can get your guitar signal unaffected by anything you do to the amp; ie, ithe amp becomes your personal monitor.
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Old 07-25-2022, 07:21 AM
YamahaGuy YamahaGuy is offline
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I'd have a good chat with the sound guy. Last time I played a gig with a "pro" sound guy, he made my FGX5--which sounds very natural plugged in--sound quacky like many acoustic-electric guitars do plugged in. Some sound guys have an idea in their head as to what an acoustic-electric guitar SHOULD sound like and they'll either make it sound like that or hide it in the mix.

For the 000, I'd go the magnetic soundhole route too. Seymour Duncan Magmic sounded great on my Eastman E1OM.
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Old 07-25-2022, 07:43 AM
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Methos1979 Methos1979 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jseth View Post
I realize that this is not the answer you may want to hear, but, given your situation, I would strongly recommend that you check out a good soundhole magnetic pickup, It's not going to sound all that acoustic-y, but it will give you a much more manageable signal in that rock group format.

Any of those soundboard pickups you mention (K&K, Trance, etc.) are going to be problematic at higher volume levels... the Anthem "might' do okay, but you'd probably be running it nearly fully on the UST portion to avoid excessive feedback - and the Element IS the UST portion of the Anthem pickups.

The most cost effective solution would be to stick with the Element in the J-45, and possibly get a preamp that has the tone shaping capability that you require.

The issue is that, when playing in a 5 or 6 piece group, you really don't want all the rich, full, resonance that a great acoustic tone has... you want something thinner that can "sit" in the mix of all the instruments and voices without adding a whole bunch of lower frequencies. It's a demanding proposition!
I second this. I was going to say the exact same thing. Since you are already a little apprehensive about "glueing" a K&K into your beloved 000-28EC, a magnetic sound hole pickup would be the way to go. It will not require permanent installation or glueing and it will fight feedback at the higher volumes you'll need/want so you can hear yourself.

Another option is to go with an HFN pickup which just gets attached with putty or sticky tape to the undersaddle so no permanent install. As for preamp for the K&K if you go that route, I found the simple and inexpensive K&K belt clip preamp was great. Another option with any of the guitars is to get yourself a decent little amp to use as a personal stage monitor and feed that out to the PA.
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Old 07-25-2022, 09:28 AM
tadol tadol is offline
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Get the UltraTonic upgrade for your HD-28, add it to the existing K&K, and see how much better it sounds plus essentially no feedback when cranked up. Once you realize how great it is, then put a complete UltraTonic into your 000-28, and your only problem will be deciding which guitar you want to play that day -
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Old 07-25-2022, 09:43 PM
lschwart lschwart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YamahaGuy View Post
I'd have a good chat with the sound guy.....
I agree. Assuming the equipment is all in proper working order, there's no reason why any of those pickup systems shouldn't be sending a strong enough signal for the sound person to make good use of. If for some reason the preamp on the board is not able to provide enough gain at the input (odd, but I suppose anything is possible), a DI box with a preamp might help. There are many out there and any of the usual suspects will do just fine (Baggs PADI, Baggs Venue, Radial PZ-Pre, PZ-Deluxe, Fire Eye RedEye, etc....). But, again, I would look into what's happening at the board first.

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Old 07-27-2022, 05:03 AM
lowrider lowrider is offline
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I agree with the others who recommended a sound-hole PU for you in your band. I want to recommend the Mojotone nc-1. It's very natural sounding and the only thing you have to do is drill out the endpin hole, then slip it in and tighten the set screws.

I have three guitars with pickups; a Road Series GPCRSG wth a JBB that sounds very nice, a GP-28e with a Fishman Matrix VT enhance that sounds much better, and most recently I put the Mojotone in my J-17. It really sounds fantastic. You know the saying ''my guitar only louder'', this is ''my guitar only better''! No worries about feedback, adjustable tone and volume, and clear, very natural tone.

Give it a try for your EC. I put it in the J-17 for the same reason as you, I didn't want to alter my guitar. And I'm just thrilled with it!
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Old 07-30-2022, 09:08 AM
jpbrooks jpbrooks is offline
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Thanks for the replies. I am leaning toward a soundhole pickup. I have read a ton about all the different ones and although consensus seems to be that the sunrise is the best, I'm not willing to pay that much for it.

Question - M1 Passive or M80?? If M1, then what preamp do you recommend?
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Old 07-30-2022, 09:37 AM
lschwart lschwart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpbrooks View Post
Thanks for the replies. I am leaning toward a soundhole pickup. I have read a ton about all the different ones and although consensus seems to be that the sunrise is the best, I'm not willing to pay that much for it.

Question - M1 Passive or M80?? If M1, then what preamp do you recommend?
I used a passive M1 for years and was very happy with it. Ran it through a Baggs PADI for a while, then a Radial PZ-Pre. Now I use an M80, set on passive, and I run it through the PZ-Pre. I like the sound better than the M1, a little fuller--I assume because it registers more of the body vibrations. I'd recommend either of them (and the M80 sounds fine in active mode, too, but I like using the PZ-Pre because of the EQ options and etc.).

I'm still curious, though, about what's going on at the board with your church band, why the signals from your pickup systems weren't strong enough.

Louis
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Old 07-30-2022, 10:02 AM
jpbrooks jpbrooks is offline
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I'm sure it has to do with the DI that is at the church. Also, the HD28 with k&k was borrowed and I traded the d-18 for the J45. So I have been exclusively playing the J-45. Again it doesn't sound terrible, other band members say it sounds fine, I just don't like the higher frequencies with it. With the 000-28ec I just don't want to put anything under the saddle. I was thinking k&k, but due to my experience with the HD-28, I know I will need a preamp and just not sure which will give me better volume output. I think the m80 sounds like what I need. Thanks for the input.
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Old 07-30-2022, 01:09 PM
lschwart lschwart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpbrooks View Post
I'm sure it has to do with the DI that is at the church. Also, the HD28 with k&k was borrowed and I traded the d-18 for the J45. So I have been exclusively playing the J-45. Again it doesn't sound terrible, other band members say it sounds fine, I just don't like the higher frequencies with it. With the 000-28ec I just don't want to put anything under the saddle. I was thinking k&k, but due to my experience with the HD-28, I know I will need a preamp and just not sure which will give me better volume output. I think the m80 sounds like what I need. Thanks for the input.
You're very welcome! Let us know how it all shakes out.

Louis
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Old 08-01-2022, 09:19 AM
slimey slimey is offline
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If you're struggling hearing the pick ups you mentioned a passive system will probably be worse.
I would try to find a good DI which allows you to vary your gain setting, so you can sent more signal to the PA.
Someone thought the Trance Amulet would feedback which has not been my experience at all. I play in a 6 piece band who do a lot of larger festival type of gigs, higher volumes. I use the Trance in a jumbo body O size Lowden without any feedback issues. I don't even bother with a sound hole cover.
I've recently been messing a little with a Baggs M80 in a J 45. The tone is not as acoustic as the Trance but it does give the signal a bit more fullness when I boost the gain for solo's . So your high notes can project through and not get lost in the mix.
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Old 08-02-2022, 05:02 AM
rokdog49 rokdog49 is offline
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I’m inclined to believe it’s the guy running sound.
I played in a worship band for a little while and the guy running sound and I were like oil and water.
I could hardly ever hear myself in my monitor. I would tell him and then he would claim to turn it up, but I still could barely hear myself. Since this had nothing to do with the output at the mains, I didn’t understand what the problem was…just turn up my monitor dude!
I learned later, no one could hear me through the mains either.
BTW, I used a variety of guitars with a variety of pickups, both passive and active…and I used a D.I.
It wasn’t the pickups.
Just my two cents.
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Old 08-02-2022, 05:12 AM
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hubcapsc hubcapsc is offline
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As per the subject:

you need to be able to hear yourself, so you're doing
the right thing working to get it sorted out...

and...

protect your hearing ...

-Mike
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