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  #16  
Old 09-13-2020, 07:17 PM
Chipotle Chipotle is offline
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Originally Posted by TBman View Post
Thanks. I can't record what I'm doing with the piano roll though. Nor can I record with other midi plugins I'm trying out. (Flute, piano)
I'm not quite sure what you mean. You don't record directly to the piano roll. You either record "live" with the virtual keyboard and then edit afterwards in the piano roll editor, or you create a blank new MIDI item, and enter the notes manually in the piano roll editor.

Can you at least play the virtual keyboard and get sounds from your plugins?

This video is a pretty good look at the process. It's Reaper-specific but I imagine it works similarly in other DAWs. He's using his own keyboard instead of the virtual one, so just choose the virtual keyboard as your MIDI input on the track.

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Old 09-13-2020, 07:25 PM
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Ok, I got it to record (output needed to be mono). Now I have to figure out how to use the virtual keyboard without the default sound being played at the same time as a plugin. I have a flute plugin that has a keyboar Edit, never mind I fixed it, I had to disable the midi device input.
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  #18  
Old 09-13-2020, 07:27 PM
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Ok, I got it to record (output needed to be mono). Now I have to figure out how to use the virtual keyboard without the default sound being played at the same time as a plugin. I have a flute plugin that has a keyboard for input but you have to use the mouse. If I open the virtual keyboard, it operates the plugin keyboard, but both the plugin and the default keyboard sound plays....
Again, not sure what you mean since there is no "default keyboard sound" for the virtual keyboard. All it does it output MIDI notes, but there is no sound unless you have a plugin to generate it. Make sure that the flute plugin is the only one on the track--delete ReaSynth if it's still there.

Also, remember that you aren't recording actual sound... just commands that say "play this note at this velocity for this long". The sound that comes out can be changed just by changing the active plugin.
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Old 09-13-2020, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Chipotle View Post
Again, not sure what you mean since there is no "default keyboard sound" for the virtual keyboard. All it does it output MIDI notes, but there is no sound unless you have a plugin to generate it. Make sure that the flute plugin is the only one on the track--delete ReaSynth if it's still there.

Also, remember that you aren't recording actual sound... just commands that say "play this note at this velocity for this long". The sound that comes out can be changed just by changing the active plugin.
I got it to work. The midi keyboard had a default sound. I turned off the midi input device in preferences. Here's a flute demo.



Thanks for your help! New toys to tinker with when my fingers are too sore from playing guitar.
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  #20  
Old 09-13-2020, 08:27 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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virtual keyboard
By "virtual keyboard," do you mean a keyboard that exists only inside your computer and not a physical keyboard that you can play? If that's the case, I can't imagine how you're going to be able to create convincing tracks. If you're going this route, you really should invest in a midi keyboard controller.

On the low cost side of things, there's the M-Audio Keystation Mini which runs about $60 and the M-Audio Keystation 49 which runs about $120. I had and would recommend the latter. The mini is a bit too small for the job because you'll have to do quite a bit of transposing when you run out of keys. I got many years of use out of the Keystation 49. I eventually got to the point where I needed an 88 key bed and I picked up an M-Audio Hammer 88 and passed the Keystation 49 to a friend who's still using it.

Both of those are powered via USB and are pretty much plug-and-play ...at least on a Mac they are. I don't think I needed to even install any software for the 49. There are other brands out there too but my experience is limited to the M-Audio. If you go that route, you really don't need any of the fancier keyboards with all the sliders and pads. At some point you may want to add an expression pedal to the mix which will bring the realism up a notch but a midi controller with decent velocity sensitivity is probably all you'd need for flute and whistles. And hopefully your instrument software has good articulations you can add (I always do those after the fact in my daw's midi editor). Those go a very long way towards making a virtual instrument sound more believable.

FYI - Violin is a tough one to get sounding authentic. Most of the violin instruments available are developed to sound like classical instruments. Often in Celtic music, you'll want more of a "fiddle" sound and you're not going to get that from a virtual instrument designed to sit in a classical/orchestral mix. I own Fiddle! by Realitone and it's okay ...not great... okay. I haven't heard a really convincing fiddle vst.
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  #21  
Old 09-13-2020, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
By "virtual keyboard," do you mean a keyboard that exists only inside your computer and not a physical keyboard that you can play? If that's the case, I can't imagine how you're going to be able to create convincing tracks. If you're going this route, you really should invest in a midi keyboard controller.

On the low cost side of things, there's the M-Audio Keystation Mini which runs about $60 and the M-Audio Keystation 49 which runs about $120. I had and would recommend the latter. The mini is a bit too small for the job because you'll have to do quite a bit of transposing when you run out of keys. I got many years of use out of the Keystation 49. I eventually got to the point where I needed an 88 key bed and I picked up an M-Audio Hammer 88 and passed the Keystation 49 to a friend who's still using it.

Both of those are powered via USB and are pretty much plug-and-play ...at least on a Mac they are. I don't think I needed to even install any software for the 49. There are other brands out there too but my experience is limited to the M-Audio. If you go that route, you really don't need any of the fancier keyboards with all the sliders and pads. At some point you may want to add an expression pedal to the mix which will bring the realism up a notch but a midi controller with decent velocity sensitivity is probably all you'd need for flute and whistles. And hopefully your instrument software has good articulations you can add (I always do those after the fact in my daw's midi editor). Those go a very long way towards making a virtual instrument sound more believable.

FYI - Violin is a tough one to get sounding authentic. Most of the violin instruments available are developed to sound like classical instruments. Often in Celtic music, you'll want more of a "fiddle" sound and you're not going to get that from a virtual instrument designed to sit in a classical/orchestral mix. I own Fiddle! by Realitone and it's okay ...not great... okay. I haven't heard a really convincing fiddle vst.
"Virtual Keyboard" is a keyboard tool in Reaper. I started another thread, Virtual Instruments II in Reaper that bypasses the whole mess of midi devices, at least for now.
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  #22  
Old 09-13-2020, 08:46 PM
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I got it to work. The midi keyboard had a default sound. I turned off the midi input device in preferences. Here's a flute demo.



Thanks for your help! New toys to tinker with when my fingers are too sore from playing guitar.
Nice, glad you got it going. I'm still curious where the "default sound" from the virtual keyboard would have come from. Was it a default flute from your plugin, or something else? In my MIDI input devices, I only see actual external devices I have hooked up. It could be a setting I'm unaware of, but I can't find it.
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  #23  
Old 09-13-2020, 09:07 PM
FrankHudson FrankHudson is offline
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I make use of a Virtual Instruments quite a bit, and like the results I can get without really being any kind of expert. A few misc. observations.

If you're not a keyboard player seeking to use the the nuances of the keys, you can cheap out on the keyboard controller. I often use a small, cheap Akai that costs $70. For stuff were i want to use the pitch bend and mod wheels I go all the way to a Nektar Impact LK25, which is less than $110.

I also use the Fishman Triple Play MIDI controller on a guitar. For non-synth keyboard instruments I'll always use a keyboard to control them. For bowed strings I'll use the guitar or the keyboard. For other plucked string VI's I'll use the guitar MIDI almost certainly.

Someone upthread mentioned Mellotron and Chamberlin. I'm totally in love with their sound from having that imprinted on my mind at an impressionable age. I don't find them convincing as the real instruments on their tapes, but the I love the sound they do make. Modern VIs can do a great job of emulating what they do I think. I use an the Mellotron in Logic, a older one: MOTU Electric Keys, and the M-Tron VI. MOTU Electric Keys has a couple of other, even more fake sounding string machines that still have a flavor of their own. That's not what the OP may be aiming for, but gee they're fun. The VIs make it easy to add nuances like some wobble, or tempo synched modulations, or to play them through a virtual guitar amp or Leslie.

I agree with the mention upthread that the flutes sound is fairly easy to emulate with pure synthesis (VI's usually don't do that, instead they use actual digital samples of the acoustic instruments, think the Mellotron's tapes of the same, only the digital samples are over a greater range of pitch, volumes, articulations and so forth). I, for whatever reason have a hard time playing flute VIs in a way that sound good to me. That's one of the tricks to make them sound real: you need to "think like a flautist or violinist" not a guitarist or keyboardist.

With solo bowed string instruments, articulations are key to getting a realistic sound. There are so many ways to bow a string, often more than one type is used in a performance.

For bowed string instruments I used the ones that come with Logic, but soon found I wanted more. I have all the East/West Guitar MIDI series packs, and the Orchestral one in that series which often goes on sale for less than $100 has a subset of many of their more expensive libraries. I use it with the Triple Play interface, but you can use any other MIDI controller with them too. During a sale event last year I added their solo cello and violin VI packages and use them a lot now. I think they cost me in the range of $90 each.

There may be free ones or lower cost ones that are better, I'm just reporting what I use with some satisfaction.

I'm not sure what some upthread mean by "programming" a VI. Yes, you can use computers to arpeggiate or play chords/intervals for you, and yes, you can compose on a piano roll grid from scratch. I do both sometimes, but mostly I'm just playing my guitar or using my naïve piano skills to play violin or cello or bassoon.

Yes, you may be offered a bunch of other choices the real instrument doesn't have. Something like the M-Tron Mellotron has more "switches and knobs" on it's screen that the real thing had in the flesh. Another advantage of VIs though is that you can totally control the recording environment. Your violin or cello can sound like it's recorded in a fine concert hall, even if you did the performance in something like my 10x10 foot ex-bedroom "Studio B" home office.

Here a piece I did about a year ago as part of my project: "Fiddler Jones" the text taken from Edgar Lee Masters "Spoon River Anthology". Given the subject I wanted to use violin prominently, but from the articulations available to me then, or the mood when composing/performing it, I didn't really aim for a folk-dance articulation. The poem mentions the music-obsessed title character hearing piccolos and bassoons in his head, so the orchestration I ended up with had those too. As I mentioned above, I've never been able to get away with a featured flute part, but mixed lower in the the mix the piccolo works OK here I think. Since I ended aiming for more of a concert hall ambience, it sounds like a reasonable simulation of what a performance of my piece would sound like in an orchestra hall.


Fiddler Jones as performed for the Parlando Project

Yes, costs for these things add up, and my budget does have limits, but given the prices and difficulties of maintaining and recording "real instruments" I'm grateful for VIs and find them a great way to expand the colors I can get into my compositions.
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  #24  
Old 09-14-2020, 04:37 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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"Virtual Keyboard" is a keyboard tool in Reaper.
I took a look at a video of what you're talking about and it's what I thought it was. I don't see how it's possible to get realistic sounding instrument tracks using that given its limitations, but that's your call.
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  #25  
Old 09-14-2020, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by FrankHudson View Post
I'm not sure what some upthread mean by "programming" a VI. Yes, you can use computers to arpeggiate or play chords/intervals for you, and yes, you can compose on a piano roll grid from scratch. I do both sometimes, but mostly I'm just playing my guitar or using my naïve piano skills to play violin or cello or bassoon.
If that was my post what I learned at Berklee was "Programming" is the overall generic term for the process of midi note "input" for using virtual instruments.

Because in even though while monitoring what you are doing with a physical keyboard, and it sounds as if you are "playing" the various VI instruments, but in reality you are creating a "program" of midi notes to trigger the various VI instrument sounds . And this applies if you are using an actual physical midi keyboard or touch pad, or using a virtual keyboard, or manually penciling in midi notes, it all falls under the general term "programming" in what I was the meaning .


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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
I took a look at a video of what you're talking about and it's what I thought it was. I don't see how it's possible to get realistic sounding instrument tracks using that given its limitations, but that's your call.
I suppose in the end it's all subjective And while I use and agree with a physical midi keyboard being easier . However from what I have seen really good midi programers do ,,,It is possible (if more tedious) to create "fairly" realistic performances with a virtual keyboard or even pencil in . Given in most DAWS you have manual midi editing features that allow you to edit in almost anything you do with a physical keyboard. One thing I can think of off hand as being an example is ,,, velocity trail off of a held note from a good touch sensitive midi keyboard . Which is actually doable manually but is a laborious process of butting very short notes together, each with their own gradually and subtly decreasing velocity stacks .

In any case while I also would recommend any one interested in VI consider getting a good touch sensitive midi keyboard, (and I realize you are not saying this ) But not having a midi controller is no reason to not dive in and learn midi
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  #26  
Old 09-14-2020, 11:54 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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However from what I have seen really good midi programers do ,,,It is possible (if more tedious) to create "fairly" realistic performances with a virtual keyboard or even pencil in . Given in most DAWS you have manual midi editing features that allow you to edit in almost anything you do with a physical keyboard.
This is not meant to be a swipe at TB, but the people who can pull that off are going to be folks at a much higher skill level than he's at right now or will be in the near future. I've got plenty of experience with virtual instruments and there's no chance I could pull that off at the level for which I'd be aiming. In one case, it's tweaking a track that was laid down with feeling. In the other case, it's trying to create feeling in a series of notes that don't differ much from each other other than pitch and length.

There have been plenty of times where I've laid down a midi track using a midi controller and gone back to tweak it after the fact only to learn that all the tweaks were just making it worse and it was faster and easier to replay the parts on the midi keyboard. Sometimes that required practicing something that was a bit difficult to play, but the end result was always better.

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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Given in most DAWS you have manual midi editing features that allow you to edit in almost anything you do with a physical keyboard. One thing I can think of off hand as being an example is ,,, velocity trail off of a held note from a good touch sensitive midi keyboard . Which is actually doable manually but is a laborious process of butting very short notes together, each with their own gradually and subtly decreasing velocity stacks .
That was the first thing I thought of as well. And while such things can be programmed after the fact, with the exception of a tiny subset of all the players out there, I think most of us are going to fail in the attempt to create something realistic using that method unless our expectations are very low.

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In any case while I also would recommend any one interested in VI consider getting a good touch sensitive midi keyboard, (and I realize you are not saying this ) But not having a midi controller is no reason to not dive in and learn midi
All of us take this journey our own way and I'm not going to fault anyone for wanting to try something. I just try to give the best advice I can based on my years of experience. If it helps someone in some way, then my time hasn't been wasted.
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Old 09-14-2020, 04:01 PM
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I think most of us are going to fail in the attempt to create something realistic using that method unless our expectations are very low.
What you are using it for is important too. You can get away with a lot more if your virtual instrument is in the background of a larger mix. If it's more front-and-center in a sparse arrangement (like the OPs project where the only other instrument is acoustic guitar) it likely won't work as well.
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Old 09-14-2020, 04:17 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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What you are using it for is important too. You can get away with a lot more if your virtual instrument is in the background of a larger mix. If it's more front-and-center in a sparse arrangement (like the OPs project where the only other instrument is acoustic guitar) it likely won't work as well.
That's true and I was answering based on the music I've heard from TB and from what he said in his original post.

My first experience with virtual instruments goes back 20 years to this song. What was available back then was nothing like what we have available today. I wanted a sax track on this song but I had no money to hire a sax player. The sax patch, which kicks in at about 1:50, came from a physical module (the name escapes me). It was imputed with a midi keyboard and we spent a lot of time massaging it to get it sounding like it does ...which was pretty good for the time but I listen to it now and I cringe. The arrangement is, as you said, sparse ...just guitar, bass, piano, and that awful fake sax.

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2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
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1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

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  #29  
Old 09-14-2020, 05:06 PM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
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Someone upthread mentioned Mellotron and Chamberlin. I'm totally in love with their sound from having that imprinted on my mind at an impressionable age. I don't find them convincing as the real instruments on their tapes, but the I love the sound they do make. Modern VIs can do a great job of emulating what they do I think. I use an the Mellotron in Logic, a older one: MOTU Electric Keys, and the M-Tron VI. MOTU Electric Keys has a couple of other, even more fake sounding string machines that still have a flavor of their own. That's not what the OP may be aiming for, but gee they're fun.
flute VIs in a way that sound good to me. That's one of the tricks to make them sound real: you need to "think like a flautist or violinist" not a guitarist or keyboardist.

Here a piece I did about a year ago as part of my project: "Fiddler Jones" the text taken from Edgar Lee Masters "Spoon River Anthology". Given the subject I wanted to use violin prominently, but from the articulations available to me then, or the mood when composing/performing it, I didn't really aim for a folk-dance articulation.

Fiddler Jones as performed for the Parlando Project
Sometimes just being a bit different defines us musically. Sets us apart from others. That is what I aim for...just a little bit of difference. A difference that will set forth emotion. I don't even have to understand the lyrics...it is the feeling, that the music transposes upon us that is important.
Your Fiddler Jones is quite different, and sets fort Lots of emotions & feeling. I really enjoyed it. Took me to another world so to speak.
It is not a melody that I would listen to over and over again. However, I know that is not the intention of this piece. It is however a melody-symphonic arrangement that I could not stop listening to while it was playing. It is a composition that left me with=feelings. The composition of the Violins Cellos beaming in and out is quite unique.
From the beginning, I thought the symphonic was a bit too stark. To cut and dry...with its melotronic violin starkness. But after a few seconds, I saw what you were trying to accomplish and the starkness became an asset as I started to...feel.
Kudos my friend. It is always quite an accomplishment to create something a little bit different.
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Old 09-14-2020, 05:14 PM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
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The arrangement is, as you said, sparse ...just guitar, bass, piano, and that awful fake sax.
Honestly we are our own worst critics(I know I am). I thought the Sax sounded pretty darn good.
Yeah, it may not have been the most realistic Sax every recorded...But it was Smooth. I would rather have smooth any day, than a realistic sax recorded with too much dynamics and attack times.
As I am sure you are well aware of, George Lucas went back and added picture content to the Original Star Wars. What was not possible then...he could add years later Thanks to modern Computer Technologies.
Many, Many people did not like the additional picture computer enhancements. They felt it was just out of place.
So while you may wish for a better sounding Sax, I actually think it sounded A. O.K. Maybe the real thing would have sounded too harsh and taken away from that mix. You never know.
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