Testing out Sennheiser mics

[ChuckS]

I recently picked up a pair of used Sennheiser MKH40 mics. The return policy was only a couple days so I quickly tried them out and made a few recordings. One of the reasons for getting these cardioids was to allow occasional recordings in my untreated living room. I also have some omni mics but they don't work so well in this room; I usually use them downstairs with some treatment in the room.

These are stereo recordings using a spaced pair arrangement. The left channel mic pointing around the 15th fret and the right channel mic pointing towards the bridge. The mic low roll off filters engaged. The tracks were panned hard left and hard right. The tracks were normalized, but no effects (no EQ, reverb, compression, etc). Also, these were a single take with no editing. The goal was to check out the mics, not get my best possible recording. No picks - flesh and nail. Strings are quite old - 7 weeks.

This first song was played on my Poling, which is a deep OMish body. Tonewoods are Cuban Mahogany and Lutz spruce. Mics 18" back from guitar and 14" between mics.

https://soundcloud.com/chuck_s/st-petes-blues-mkh40



This next song was played on my Carruth, which is a 12 fret 000 body. Tonewoods are Pernambuco and Red Spruce. Mics 20" back from guitar and 15" between mics.

https://soundcloud.com/chuck_s/the-lords-prayer-mkh40



I'd appreciate your thoughts on the mics, the mics used in this recording space, or the recordings in general.

The rest of the recording chain was a Gordon Model 5 preamp, Speck HPF at 50Hz, and Mytek Stereo192 ADC. The downloadable wav files are 44.1KHz, 16 bit.

[AcousticDreams]

Hey ChuckS,
Thank you so much for posting this demo of your Senheiser 40 mics. Great playing and great sounding demo.

I am by no mean any sort of an expert. However, I am impressed, they sound like they produce an even flat response...but with a very natural openness to them. I like it!

I get the impression that In general, Mics are kind of like guitars. No one guitar will work for every playing style and or music you wish to play. Some guitars works better for singer songwriters. Some guitars works better for Fingerstyle. And some Guitars works better for strummers.

There is a reasonable chance that microphones are similar in this way. Some mics work better for certain people and the way that they play and the guitars they use.

Before my recent purchase of Schoeps...I had come to the opinion that certain mics add heft-meat to a recording( A term that I made up). Classic mics, like Neumanns, and the modern Schoeps add a bit of heft by offering a round smooth response. It is a slight difference..but still one that can be noticed.

DPA Microphones offer more openness and capture all of the little articulations of the plucked note.

Your MPH 40's seem very smooth and accurate but with a nice smoothness to them( of course that could just be your great playing)

And that is where the difficultly lies sometimes in judging microphones. Great Players, like Michael Watts and Doug Young, will sound incredible on any of those higher end microphones. They play with perfection.

Bottom line, I am really liking what I am hearing in your recordings. And more importantly, they may be just right for yourself. It has been noted by many that Typically Hypercardiods are a great choice where untreated room conditions exist. But what I am hearing in your recording with these cardiod patterns sounds very nice. A very real-authentic sound.

[rick-slo]

Very good sound for the Poling guitar. Those mikes have a good reputations. A few prior threads on those mikes exist on the forum.

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

...[snip]...

I am by no mean any sort of an expert. However, I am impressed, they sound like they produce an even flat response...but with a very natural openness to them. I like it!

...[snip]...
Your MPH 40's seem very smooth and accurate but with a nice smoothness to them( of course that could just be your great playing)
...[snip]...
Bottom line, I am really liking what I am hearing in your recordings. And more importantly, they may be just right for yourself. It has been noted by many that Typically Hypercardiods are a great choice where untreated room conditions exist. But what I am hearing in your recording with these cardiod patterns sounds very nice. A very real-authentic sound.

Thanks for taking the time to listen and respond with so much detail.

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Very good sound for the Poling guitar. Those mikes have a good reputations. A few prior threads on those mikes exist on the forum.

Derek, thanks for taking the time to listen and respond.

You mentioned the sound for the Poling guitar specifically, so it makes me wonder about your thoughts on the other recording. Do you have some feedback (negative feedback is also appreciated and helpful) where you feel the other guitar/song/playing/room/mic technique, or use of this particular mic, does not produce as good of a sound?

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

Derek, thanks for taking the time to listen and respond.

You mentioned the sound for the Poling guitar specifically, so it makes me wonder about your thoughts on the other recording. Do you have some feedback (negative feedback is also appreciated and helpful) where you feel the other guitar/song/playing/room/mic technique, or use of this particular mic, does not produce as good of a sound?

At work and listened with cheap headphones. The clarity of notes on the Poling was better. With the better headphones I have at home I could have a different opinion.

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

At work and listened with cheap headphones. The clarity of notes on the Poling was better. With the better headphones I have at home I could have a different opinion.

Thanks for the additional feedback Derek. The Poling definitely has a lot of clarity and separation of notes/strings. The Carruth has quite a dark and complex tone; recordings of it can appear more congested in the lows especially on lessor playback systems.

[Doug Young]

Hi Chuck, you asked me to jump in on this, so... it'd be interesting to compare the results in your untreated room vs your usual recording space. Was the Roy Bookbinder tune you posted earlier recorded in the living room or in your treated space? That recording seemed better to me. In these recordings, I hear not so much "echo", but sort of a resonance or not-flat frequency response - really hard to judge without knowing the guitars, of course, but it sort of seems to me like the room is affecting the tone a bit. Certainly good enough for sharing, but if you were doing more serious recording like for a CD release, I hear something a little off. Sort of depends on what you're shooting for whether it matters. You have good gear, so I'd expect a bit better sound than this, and it's probably the room acoustics.

In an untreated room, I'd try closer placement. When I record in my untreated video room, I go for about 8 inches, which I think helps (tho I can still hear the room a bit on those).

[ChuckS]

Hi Doug, thanks for listening to these recordings and explaining what you're hearing, in particular effects from the room and/or recording technique.

Both of the above recordings were done in the untreated living room. (also, St. Pete's Blues - Roy Bookbinder is the same recording in this thread and in the Show and Tell thread). Setup for these two recordings was very similar, both spaced pair, but the mic distance and spacing did move a few inches (I was experimenting). Also, the guitars are drastically different (and I feel I was a lot more inconsistent in playing the The Lord's Prayer on the Carruth; inconsistencies in volume and in fretting some notes). I guess it's not surprising that there is a non-flat frequency response; maybe the peaks and nulls caused by reflections? Something else I just thought of is I think I was using my headphones to monitor while recording, and they are open back. I don't have similar recordings right now to compare my two spaces, but below is a recording of a different song using the Carruth in my other space.

These recordings are just for my own archiving and for a bit of sharing; nothing serious. So, sometimes it's just out of time and convenience where I set up to record. Part of my learning at this time is to understand what I'm hearing, and what it's coming from, so your explanations are helpful. I usually prefer recording at distances of 18-24", but I guess in this space I may have to compromise and reduce that to reduce some unwanted artifacts.

Thanks again for sharing your insights. (Also thanks for all the music and recording knowledge you share on the forum).


Here's the recording I made using the Carruth, but it's a different song. It was done in my 'treated' space but treatment consisted of simply 5 large gobos. Also, the mics used on this recording were omnis (Gefell M296S).

[Doug Young]

It could just be the guitar(s) that I'm keying in on. The Caruth seems very boxy on this recording, which also comes thru on the living room recording. All mids, no bass or highs. Not sure what you could do to open up the sound more. Are you panning the mics inward? It almost sounds like what you get with phase cancellation, but more extreme than usual. The Pono track sounds much better to my ears, and the one on the Bookbinder tune better yet.

I'd definitely experiment with mic placement. I've recorded in a fantastic studio a few times where we put mics out 3-4 feet and it sounded great. But even in my heavily treated space, 24 inches doesn't cut it for me. The fingerstyle people I've talked to abut recording are pretty consistent about close micing, sometimes *very* close. But 10 inches seems to be pretty normal. The main issue you get into is proximity effect causing a bass boost (which you can usually EQ if desired), and poor room acoustics can add to the problem.

Have you tried your omni's in the living room? Because you can get the mics really close - I mean even 2 inches away, you can reduce the room effect without having proximity issues. Worth a try. I have a pair of AEA N22s which are specifically designed for home recording and close micing - very little proximity effect even tho they're ribbons. To me, they sound best at ridiculously close placement, a few inches, which is kind of the idea of the design, so even tho they're figure-8, they work well in untreated rooms.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Hi Chuck, you asked me to jump in on this, so... it'd be interesting to compare the results in your untreated room vs your usual recording space. Was the Roy Bookbinder tune you posted earlier recorded in the living room or in your treated space? That recording seemed better to me. In these recordings, I hear not so much "echo", but sort of a resonance or not-flat frequency response - really hard to judge without knowing the guitars, of course, but it sort of seems to me like the room is affecting the tone a bit. Certainly good enough for sharing, but if you were doing more serious recording like for a CD release, I hear something a little off. Sort of depends on what you're shooting for whether it matters. You have good gear, so I'd expect a bit better sound than this, and it's probably the room acoustics.

In an untreated room, I'd try closer placement. When I record in my untreated video room, I go for about 8 inches, which I think helps (tho I can still hear the room a bit on those).

After giving another listen, I can hear what Doug is talking about. I do hear that sort of resonance - non flat frequency response that he mentions. Additionally, I hear certain notes seemingly jumping out, leaving an unbalanced impression.

However, When I compare the recording you made with the Gefells omnis, (which sound far more even -Balanced in comparison) ...I find a...Presence - an Intimacy = lost with the Gefells. I did briefly own a pair of 295's a couple of years ago.

As Doug pointed out in the KM84 comparison to Schoeps...that presence I am hearing with your Senn's might just be a volume difference. Or, it could be the proximity the cardiods produce? I was so surprised to hear what just 1db did to my perception.

It would be fun to hear a recording using all four mics together? Not a comparison but a combined sound?

A shameless plug for Doug's new album with Tja Gerken; the guitars sound amazing over my hi-fi system. They have it all, Presence, intimacy and smoothness, with no protruding-annoying frequencies. Of course, incredible compositions and playing also make the album what it is.

It is always a battle to make a recording that are smooth, yet exciting and open as well.

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

It could just be the guitar(s) that I'm keying in on. The Caruth seems very boxy on this recording, which also comes thru on the living room recording. All mids, no bass or highs. Not sure what you could do to open up the sound more. Are you panning the mics inward? It almost sounds like what you get with phase cancellation, but more extreme than usual. The Pono track sounds much better to my ears, and the one on the Bookbinder tune better yet.

I'd definitely experiment with mic placement. ...[snip]...

Have you tried your omni's in the living room? ...[snip],,,

Hi Doug,
Thanks again for the detailed feedback. I'll definitely put in some effort on the Carruth recordings, trying different distances as well as the omni mics. I did go back and verify that the 2 tracks were panned hard left and hard right (not inward). I have tried the omnis on the Carruth in the untreated room, but not as close as what you've suggested.

Not that I'm expecting you to put more time into this, but I was wondering if you listened through Soundcloud or if you downloaded the wav file.

Thanks again

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

Hi Doug,
Thanks again for the detailed feedback. I'll definitely put in some effort on the Carruth recordings, trying different distances as well as the omni mics. I did go back and verify that the 2 tracks were panned hard left and hard right (not inward). I have tried the omnis on the Carruth in the untreated room, but not as close as what you've suggested.

Not that I'm expecting you to put more time into this, but I was wondering if you listened through Soundcloud or if you downloaded the wav file.

Thanks again

Hi Chuck, I only listened to the streamed audio. I don't think it would make much difference in what I hear, but seeing that you are making these downloadable (good....), I'll grab them and see if further inspection inspires any other thoughts.

[Doug Young]

OK, I dug in a bit more, and there are a few interesting things. First, the stereo image is pretty narrow, even narrower than I'd usually see with XY. How far apart are the mics? If you're going back 2 feet, you might need to space wider to get a reasonable stereo image. My advice would be to try 10-12 inches from the guitar, around 20 inches apart, but every guitar and space is different, so you'd have to experiment. I think getting a wider image would help open things up.

Lots of midrange - kind of a hump between 100-500, and some rather punchy notes - might be from the untreated room, could just be the guitar.

Also, a bit of noise, broadband hiss, and a low steady hum around 80Hz. Interestingly, there doesn't seem to be much guitar down there in that area. is this capo'd maybe? part of the territory with home recording, but I'd at least trim the beginning tightly, so you don't hear the noise at the beginning.

I tried a mix, greatly widened the stereo image (better to do it with mics), lots of EQ, a bit of reverb. I'm not sure it's an improvement, might have just messed it up! I'll PM you the file to check out, post, delete, ignore, whatever.

[rick-slo]

Listened again with my better playback system. Like the sound of the Poling better - clearer and less boxy sounding.
Narrow soundstage for a spaced pair of mikes. Perhaps the R and L channels are panned in somewhat.