opinion re: church music...

[franchelB]

Once again, Cotten delivers again; though I do feel that most folks that have responded are more focused on the music rather than the religious aspects of it.

Personally, I'm doing music ministry because I feel that it's my own way of giving back to the church of what gifts God has given me. If the congregation likes the music, great! If they didn't, they're always welcomed to offer suggestions to make the music group sound better. But, it's never been or never will be my intention to be "Mr. Guitar god/Rock Star".

I'm just glad that I "stumbled" into this section of the "AGF"! I just don't visit here often.

[mapletrees]

Originally Posted by geardaddy

why does "contemporary" church music suck so bad?

most emotional/sincere American music has traditionally come from either very rural or very urban areas (opinion)....both of those environments can dish out a pretty primitive harshness upon folks...and a true need to come together through music/church/community/whatever is the result...


when I see the late night/early morning CCM informercials/advertisements...


I think silly suburban syrup....


suburban softees floating around the sea of syrup in their comfort bubbles...


looking silly and insincere when they occasionally/periodically bump into one another.....


nothing more nothing less....


I reserve the right to be wrong....

[geardaddy]

Cotton wrote:

Now, back to the original post. Geardaddy, I think your original post paints all "contemporary" church music with far to broad a brush. Though you confess to limited experience and say that it's just your opinion, you also say "music ministers have no taste in music,... these guys seem to be typically a little nerdy, and into vocal stuff, and don't really understand." That's pretty insulting of thousands of music ministers you've never met. In my opinion, that's like saying guitar music stinks. Sure, some of it does, and yes, it might generate some good discussion, but you shouldn't be too surprised when people take exception to it.

I'm not surprised that some people take exception. Thank you for the input. I wouldn't however frame my comment as "a sniper shooting into a stadium crowd...", that is unless you see my words as being a weapon, and my purpose as being to intentionally hurt someone on this forum. However, you are right that I probably unintentionally stepped on a few toes. My intent was to get feedback on this issue, and to possibly gain some new knowledge about it. I agree that my statement could be insulting to some music ministers. That is the problem with bulletin boards...sometimes you say things and hit that send button, and later it comes back to bite you in the behind...so apologies to those of you who took offence, and also thanks for taking the time to let me know what you think. I call that a win-win.
Now I gotta go to work Bill

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Hondo

I couldn't agree more. There's an incredible difference between "Pass It On" and "Seeing You" (Matt Redman).

Hi Hondo...
That brought a smile...

I usually try to ascertain what ''era'' folks are from when playing worship music, and fit my styling to it.

Was at a friend's home where there was an older couple (the host's parents) who were visiting and they began talking about the music that had pulled them along when they were starting out...and I realized what era they were from.

So for the next 30 minutes or so we just sang folk music and the hits were:

• Pass It On
• He's Everything To Me
• For Those Tears I Died
• Hallelujah (not Handel)
• Two Hands (Love Song's First Album)
• Lil' Country Church (same album)
• He is Lord
• Thou Art Worthy
  etc...

It was fun. We have not sung those since about 1972. It was a good marker as to how things have changed, and have improved.

His folks (now in their 70s) went home enthused that someone even knew the music that had been their's when they were in their 40s.

[geardaddy]

PS: I would like it if the music ministers who have responded thus far maybe continue to discuss this under a new post so I can gain some more knowledge...then I will be less of a "nerd" when it comes to this. Who knows, it may get me going back to church??!

[aschroeder]

Originally Posted by geardaddy

PS: I would like it if the music ministers who have responded thus far maybe continue to discuss this under a new post so I can gain some more knowledge...then I will be less of a "nerd" when it comes to this. Who knows, it may get me going back to church??!

Like most on this forum, I'm not a music minister. I'm just a volunteer. The way I see it, you're going to get what you want out of a church service. Some see it as a spectator sport. When in reality it is a two way experience.

The music teams are only as good as the volunteers. If you have gifts in music, maybe it's time you help them out.

[trpullen]

Originally Posted by Joe F

To further the point however. Let's say say we have to choose between pastors, one who is a man of God, has a heart for service and worship, loves his congregation, loves his Lord, but is not the greatest public speaker. He may hesitate between points, lose his place etc.. That may distract some from worship, but they get past it. The second pastor is just a highly skilled public speaker. He doesn't care whether the message is true or not, it's just his job to deliver it with flair and polish. He is witty, can keep you on the edge of your seat with his anecdotes etc.., but could care less whether you are understanding the message. I've seen both. I'll take the first one with all his flaws.

I would say neither is qualified and you need to keep looking for a qualified pastor. A heart only takes you so far. That is where spiritual giftedness comes in. Your first candidate sounds like a really good Deacon and the second, a really good Salesman.

[trpullen]

Originally Posted by astrummer

Is there implication here that there was a "dry spell" in terms of quality in CCM music a few years back, or on the other hand is it that new is by definition "good" whereas (more than 10 years ) old is bad? ( Or something else?)

I am saying that there was a growth period in CCM through the 80s where some really poor stuff was out there. I think that may of the things out there today have great lyrics and strong songwriting. This is a relatively new thing from the assessments I have done (and I have listened to a LOT of stuff).

We can be biblically accurate AND culturally relevant.

[trpullen]

I am sure we all agree that Amazing Grace will far outlive all of us. It is timeless because it is well written and just plain strong. I would guess that many of us would also agree that Rich Mullins' (and Beaker) Step by Step may well end up in that category down the road.

What songs from the current "A List" do you see lasting past this decade?

[Joe F]

Originally Posted by trpullen

I would say neither is qualified and you need to keep looking for a qualified pastor. A heart only takes you so far. That is where spiritual giftedness comes in. Your first candidate sounds like a really good Deacon and the second, a really good Salesman.

In a perfect world, with unlimited candidates who were aligned with our doctrine and unlimited finacial resouces to pay the top dog, that would be a solution. As it is with music however, this is not always the case for the non "mega-churches". You have to line up beliefs, doctrine, theology, personality, leadership ability and a host of other things including skills, then either hope you can afford them, or go with a volunteer who meets what you deem most critical.

In our case, the somewhat rough around the edges pastor with heart grew into one of the finest pastors I have ever seen. It happened because we looked past his inital public speaking shortcomings and and focused on what was truly important in worship. Public speaking skills was not the top priority.

The same as it will be with my bass player. Initially, he "sucked". He has worked his fingers to the stumps to learn however and has been willing to do anything and everything to improve himself. Lessons at his own expense, practice and them more practice, and then more practice. Again I say, I will gladly take him over a funky Marcus Miller slap/pop whiz that thinks it's all about him.

Your results may vary. Since we can't go into religious discussion, I really can't explain it any deeper than that so I don't expect to truly get my point across.

Also, I am not offended by anything said so far. There has been some speaking from ignorance on this thread, and I don't intend that to be an insult. Just a lack of insight and understanding about what we have to try to accomplish and what we're sometimes given to do it with. Peace.

[geardaddy]

Joe F wrote:
"Also, I am not offended by anything said so far. There has been some speaking from ignorance on this thread, and I don't intend that to be an insult. Just a lack of insight and understanding about what we have to try to accomplish and what we're sometimes given to do it with. Peace."
This grace is not "cheap" thanks Joe! bill

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by trpullen

I am saying that there was a growth period in CCM through the 80s where some really poor stuff was out there.

Hi TRP...
Haven't we always had more hymns in the book we don't use than those we do? There are some really poorly written ones.

There are always some ''better than others'' of any variety of music we encounter.

Actually I know a fellow who regularly submits choruses to ''worship recording groups'', and he has gotten the response ''We are interested in your song x_____x, but the lyrics on the third verse are weak. If you strengthen them, we will consider it for an upcoming project.'' They elaborated further.

He did, they did. That says to me, they expect growth. My thought is if I can edit copy for an article to fit in a newspaper/magazine/newsletter, I can edit lyrics and melody to make them fit as well without sacrificing content (accuracy) and relevance.

[trpullen]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi TRP...
Haven't we always had more hymns in the book we don't use than those we do? There are some really poorly written ones.

There are always some ''better than others'' of any variety of music we encounter.

Actually I know a fellow who regularly submits choruses to ''worship recording groups'', and he has gotten the response ''We are interested in your song x_____x, but the lyrics on the third verse are weak. If you strengthen them, we will consider it for an upcoming project.'' They elaborated further.

He did, they did. That says to me, they expect growth. My thought is if I can edit copy for an article to fit in a newspaper/magazine/newsletter, I can edit lyrics and melody to make them fit as well without sacrificing content (accuracy) and relevance.

Yeah, I think the real garbage hymns got left in the dust too thus my next question about what CCM tunes would withstand the test of time.

As for editing, the problem is that we are prohibited by law from editing bad CCM songs as they exist. We can write and edit our own but...our hands are tied on copyrighted material.

[astrummer]

Originally Posted by trpullen

Yeah, I think the real garbage hymns got left in the dust too thus my next question about what CCM tunes would withstand the test of time.

.

I have appreciated when within the "general CCM" genre, people have taken songs that have withstood some of the test of time and applied modern rhythms and chords to give a more contemporary feel to them. I often think that one of the better ways to bridge the church musical generation gap is to take some of the best of the older songs ( sliding definition ) and do them in a contemporary style.

[SNaP2it]

Originally Posted by geardaddy

the problem is, pastors, or music ministers or whatever tend to take a big dumpp in the punch bowl when it comes to music, and frankly I'd rather listen to a sermon then to bad music...
...just my opinion though.

As one that crossed the line regarding religious discussion, I apologize. Thanks for your comments Cotten. I just don't see how we can separate the two because worship IS a religious experience.

That seems to be the point as I examine the above quote. Outside of special projects or special songs, the congregation is there to participate in this musical expression of worship. A worship leader's job is to bring the congregation into a worship experience that they are participating in, not watching or listening to. A very gifted musician or entertainer might be better suited to do this because of their talent, but in no way does that guarantee it. Conversely, a very good worship leader may not be skilled when it comes to special music, solos, or pure musical entertainment. They really are two different things, but skill in one area (musical talent) will definitely be helpful to draw on when leading worship. Any worship leader that understands this will put things in proper priority - one, have the right heart attitude for leading worship (no ego, it isn't about me); and two, you owe it to your congregation and the One you are there to worship to develop your musical skills to the best degree that you are able.