K&K Pure Mini vs. Trinity

[ethanay]

Originally Posted by rc3797

Hey guys,

I recently had a thread about buying my old 1956 J-50 back. I mentioned that I’m planning on having a K&K installed. I initially planned on putting in a pure mini, and I’ve had those in quite a few guitars in the past, and combined with my red eye, they’ve never let me down. However, the more I think about it, I can’t help but wonder if it would be worth it to make the jump up to the Trinity system. I’ve never had a system with an internal mic, but it has to lend itself to a more “authentic” sound, right? I also like the fact that you can blend in the mic depending on the setting you’re playing in. The only thing that is holding me up is the external preamp. Can I still use my red eye on conjunction with it? As the guitar is 60-something years old, and I love the natural acoustic sound, I want to avoid the onboard preamp version to keep the inside as “open” as possible. Also, will the SBT still work normally if I don’t have the box to blend in the mic?

Those of you who have experience with both systems, is the plugged-in tone of the added mic worth the upcharge over the standard mini?

I think the new internal micing systems sound great, and I don't bother with them. Here's why:

1. The K&K pure mini -- which I also use to great effect with a Red Eye -- sounds "good enough" for any live application where I'll need more volume. These are usually ensemble situations where individual instrument sound quality doesn't really matter. It's like the difference between playing a solo acoustic piano and playing a sampled piano in an ensemble setting. And it works great when I want my acoustic guitar to be more electric sounding (e.g. adding distortion) or am using a looper pedal. I can get a really nice woody archtoppy sound out of it when I need to, with less concern about feedback. OR if I'm just playing solo and still need to amplify, I'm usually just "goosing" the volume with the pickup and amplification, to add to the acoustic voice, which is exactly the point of a dual pickup/mic system in the first place.

2. If I'm in a situation that needs the clarity and "authenticity" of a mic'd sound, then an external or internal mic isn't going to make much difference to me, and an external mic is far more flexible and nuanced in terms of placement/voicing and not be that much more trouble. An internal mic can produce a great sound but is much more difficult to move around to get the different effects you can get with an external mic. So in this sense it's a "maybe nice to have" sort of thing, but...

3. I hate, hate hate having multiple batteries in multiple instruments. One single external preamp for me, thank you. That's about what I can manage in battery maintenance and upkeep. It's part of an ethic I feel in keeping my acoustic guitars mostly acoustic, with mostly-reversible upgrades. I NEVER buy an instrument with pre-installed electronics, unless it's a K&K mini or similar system.



That's the side of the compromise I fall on. A lot of folks really like the internal mics. They can sound great. I just don't see the need for them in my circumstances. If you don't mind having one mic'd sound or preamps and batteries in individual instruments or you find you need the mic'd sound but also need to have freedom of motion then YMMV.


If I need EQ, i just add it to the FX loop on the Red Eye. I have a couple to choose from. I prefer the more parametric vs graphic ones because I find it's just one or two frequencies I need to boost or cut to get things sounding right.

[ethanay]

Originally Posted by jamison162

I did that yesterday, and heard back today. The new units just started shipping 2/01. Here's what Daren said:

"Thanks for the question! Yes, support for low-voltage electret microphone phantom power has been added to the Red-Eye Twin. The fire-eye.com website does not currently disclose the new products but will be updated soon. Please post this new information on forums as you see fit.

Recently Fire-Eye Development announced to resellers the release of a new generation of Red-Eye Preamps, with enhanced features added to the Red-Eye and Red-Eye Twin. All units shipped from the factory starting 2/1/2020 have the added features.

The following enhancements to our design have been implemented with the help of musicians around the world who have continually contributed to improving our products.

For the Red-Eye and Twin...
1) Improved electronics...even more clean headroom
2) Silent push buttons...no ON - OFF click
3) XLR Ground-Lift switch
4) 9 to 18 volt pedal board power jack

For the Twin...
Previously mentioned features +
Power for electret microphones - a switch for channel B enables microphone phantom power - this feature supports blending dual-pickups in instruments that have a piezo pickup and a microphone.

Attached are data sheets for the newly released Red-Eyes.

Thanks and best regards,
Daren / www.fire-eye.com"

Here's the new Data Sheet for the Twin that he sent via email:

https://1drv.ms/b/s!Amwhs7iVLrpioh9V...B3uLj?e=Y7rHc8

Whoa, those look like fantastic updates. For me, #3 and #4 (ground lift and power input) have the most meaning. The silent switch I personally don't see the point of. I think the current switch has a great feel to it. And the increased headroom...? I can't say I've ever risked running out of headroom before! Has this happened to other users? It seems like they designed them originally with already some best-in-class audio engineering.


...which makes me wonder, how many design iterations and versions of the Red Eye preamps have there been?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ethanay

. If you don't mind having one mic'd sound or preamps and batteries in individual instruments or you find you need the mic'd sound but also need to have freedom of motion then YMMV..

Just a note that you don't have any batteries in the guitar with the K&K+Mic. The mic gets powered by an external preamp, the system in the guitar is totally passive. K&K does have an active system (their models and so on get quite confusing), but I don't think it supports the mic. The "Trinity" system is pure mini+mic+external preamp, as best as I can tell.

I generally use an internal mic in my guitars, and I have no batteries anywhere. The mic is helpful when the situation is right, tho increasingly with things like ToneDexter, Voiceprint, etc, you can get a very good sound without a mic. And of course, in the right situation (stationary, good sound system, good room acoustics, low-moderate volume), an external mic is a very good option, depending on the sound you want and what other effects and so on that you use.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by jamison162

"Thanks for the question! Yes, support for low-voltage electret microphone phantom power has been added to the Red-Eye Twin.

He's done that as an option for quite a long time, sounds like it's finally there as the default. I ordered a twin with this option maybe 3 or 4 years ago. It worked well, tho with an internal mic, what ends up being most needed is a high pass filter/low end roll-off. I could sort of simulate that by boosting the treble all the way up on the mic, and then mixing it in lower. I eventually sold mine, as it just didn't really fill the need - if I want to blend in a mic, I want a preamp with the right EQ features, and if I want "point-and-shoot" as Larry calls it, I have a regular Red-eye that works fine for that.

With dual source, especially with a mic, it ends up being *very* useful to be able to EQ each source separately.

[BluesKing777]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Just a note that you don't have any batteries in the guitar with the K&K+Mic. The mic gets powered by an external preamp, the system in the guitar is totally passive. K&K does have an active system (their models and so on get quite confusing), but I don't think it supports the mic. The "Trinity" system is pure mini+mic+external preamp, as best as I can tell.

I generally use an internal mic in my guitars, and I have no batteries anywhere. The mic is helpful when the situation is right, tho increasingly with things like ToneDexter, Voiceprint, etc, you can get a very good sound without a mic. And of course, in the right situation (stationary, good sound system, good room acoustics, low-moderate volume), an external mic is a very good option, depending on the sound you want and what other effects and so on that you use.

My Cargill custom has an onboard K&K Trinity with battery inside! (called the K&K Trinity Onboard). The luthier ordered and installed it by mistake - I wanted the Trinity Pro system with external pre. But it sounds so good that I kept it! I have the Trinity Pro in other guitars, no batteries in guitar! It is just Murphy’s Law that the battery IN the guitar will give out in a bad moment while the external pre battery will never go flat!

BluesKing777.

[ljguitar]

Hi folks…
Just jumping into this 'resurrected' thread to comment on Trinity 'Pro' and other dual source configurations of K&K Pure mini with an internal mic. This combination is superior to just the K&K Pure mini alone (with an exception).

I played a 'self-styled' K&K Dual Source (2005-2006 K&K Pure Mini and K&K Silver Bullet mic), with outboard preamps full-time till 2019 when my wife gave me a ToneDexter for Christmas.

I drive the ToneDexter with the K&K Pure Mini.

I left the Old Style Silver Bullet mics inside each of my 4 K&K dual source equipped guitars. That way I have a backup…and a quick dual source rig (for one or two song gigs) where the ToneDexter isn't as convenient.

I use both a Raven PMB II and a DTAR Solstice for outboard 2 channel preamps, and they sound nearly as good as the ToneDexter (which has far superior feedback resistance and tweak-ability).

The ToneDexter was an experiment on my part to see if the sound could be more 'natural' than the internal dual source. It is (marginally) better. I can hear the difference, but most others never would. I continue to use it for it's handier, adjustable, feedback resistance.

Hope this adds to the (already been around for a while) thread…

[Mbroady]

This is a “for what it’s worth” post because I appreciate the K&K mini for what it does but....
I replaced the K&K mini with a Schatten HSF SBT in a K&K dual source set up. The hSF sounds better (more natural to my ear) and works great as a plug and play option with the K&K pre amp. Especially since the K&K pre has a 3 band eq for each source. It’s a set and forget deal, unless you need some Eq adjustment.

[ethanay]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Just a note that you don't have any batteries in the guitar with the K&K+Mic. The mic gets powered by an external preamp, the system in the guitar is totally passive. K&K does have an active system (their models and so on get quite confusing), but I don't think it supports the mic. The "Trinity" system is pure mini+mic+external preamp, as best as I can tell.

I generally use an internal mic in my guitars, and I have no batteries anywhere. The mic is helpful when the situation is right, tho increasingly with things like ToneDexter, Voiceprint, etc, you can get a very good sound without a mic. And of course, in the right situation (stationary, good sound system, good room acoustics, low-moderate volume), an external mic is a very good option, depending on the sound you want and what other effects and so on that you use.

Thanks for clarifying, Doug!

[ethanay]

Originally Posted by ethanay

Whoa, those look like fantastic updates. For me, #3 and #4 (ground lift and power input) have the most meaning. The silent switch I personally don't see the point of. I think the current switch has a great feel to it. And the increased headroom...? I can't say I've ever risked running out of headroom before! Has this happened to other users? It seems like they designed them originally with already some best-in-class audio engineering.


...which makes me wonder, how many design iterations and versions of the Red Eye preamps have there been?

I emailed Daren and he responded:

the impedance-matching input circuit has been in all of our products for all of our 13 years. Before I built the first Red-Eye prototype I studied the properties of the various piezoelectric materials used in instrument pickups. I realized their properties changed with frequency so I made the first Red-Eye provide the frequency-variable load impedance that pickups like to see.
Other features were added when we would do a new “build” of a product.

Over the years we have added...
- Silent soft-touch red pushbuttons
- XLR ground lift switch
- 9 to 18 volt pedal board power jack
- Low-voltage phantom power switch for the Twin and Dee-Eye to support some electret condenser microphones.

I'd be curious to know how unique the foundational impedance matching design of the Red Eye is in the preamp world. I didn't even know that's what I was buying when I bought the Red Eye. It just sounded better than any other preamp I had ever used before, including ones that allegedly had the "correct" fixed impedance for my pickups. So naturally, I thought it was magic and left it at that...

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by ethanay

Thanks for clarifying, Doug!

Hi all…
Actually there is a version of the Trinity (K&K Ultra-Pure system) that has the preamp installed internally (as well as the battery). The adjustments are installed in the vertical edge of the soundhole.

And it adjusts all three tone ranges, as well as volume from the soundhole. The battery is 'bagged' internally.

oops - that model is single source (mini only).

They (K&K) still list an 'onboard trinity system with internal preamp' on their site. I have played a guitar with one of those in it.