Finger picking with the 5th finger

[mr. beaumont]

My pinky is physically so much shorter than my other fingers (which are quite long) that using it to fingerpick would cause me to do some weird angle thing with my hand that couldn't be good. So for me, I'll go thumb plus 3.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by beninma

Interesting question. I'm just starting out on this, I've been seriously working on fingerpicking for a few weeks after a few years of using a pick, just one more thing to work on.

I'm being taught to not use the pinky, and that's fine for now. Thumb for strings 4-5-6, index on 3, middle on 2, ring on 1.

Anchoring definitely doesn't feel right to me, at least not with the pinky. I am somewhat happy to anchor my palm up by the bridge or even on the bass strings if they're temporarily not needed but the pinky sure doesn't feel right if I use it as an anchor.

I need to see what is going to work in terms of moving my hand towards/away from the bridge to change tone too.

Fully agree with all this. (If I need to anchor, I'll do it with wrist by or on the bridge too.)

Originally Posted by beninma

I watched a video recently with Tommy Emmanuel really emphatically claiming it was better to anchor. He said something like, "I want to be on the same team as Atkins/Travis/Haggard, they all anchored, I'm on that team, it's the winning team."

He's talking about a specific style of fingerpicking - and actually only three players (great as they were).

Travis anchored three fingers on the scratchplate! Fine if you can do what he did with thumb and index alone.

Atkins -he anchored with his pinky most of the time, but not all:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHtwF-gpluc

Haggard: I didn't have him down as a fingerpicker (and haven't found video yet), but I'll take Tommy's word for it.

But the other point about their style in general, is that the damped bass requires the palm on the bridge anyway. That ought to be sufficient anchor.

I'm still not anti-anchoring with the pinky. I just don't see it as necessary, even with Travis style. For Tommy himself - who plays much fancier than those guys ever did - I'm sure he finds that anchor useful. (And it doesn't inhibit your right hand picking different places on the strings, which is the advantage over bridge anchoring - you just slide the pinky along.)

FWIW:
Mississippi John Hurt anchored ring and pinky:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85BvT5X6WSo
So did Big Bill Broonzy, some of the time, but quite loosely:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-pShRISHnQ
and Skip James:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytVww5r4Nk0
Bert Jansch - with quite a different style - often anchored pinky and/or ring (lightly) on scratchplate or against 1st string:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkX7Q2J7k48
John Martyn didn't anchor (his RH technique made it both impossible and unnecessary):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra_uv0uIY-g&t=21
Richard Thompson doesn't anchor - but his forearm is clamped to the guitar top (and he's hybrid picking):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdrG4tZf4uw&t=41

As for the topic, it looks like Thompson might occasionally use his pinky to pick with (his index being tied up with holding the pick), but it's not clear. None of the others do, and most make do with index and middle alone.

[DukeX]

This is a non-issue IMO. Learn some picking techniques from others. Keep the ones you like, and discard the rest. Also create your own. There are far more right hand techniques than any of us will ever learn.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by DukeX

This is a non-issue IMO. Learn some picking techniques from others. Keep the ones you like, and discard the rest. Also create your own. There are far more right hand techniques than any of us will ever learn.

Sure. No rules. Doesn't make it not worth discussing though.

(I've been fingerpicking for 50 years, and I learned something myself from this thread.)

[M Hayden]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

My pinky is physically so much shorter than my other fingers (which are quite long) that using it to fingerpick would cause me to do some weird angle thing with my hand that couldn't be good. So for me, I'll go thumb plus 3.

Same here. I’d love to have another available finger but the ergonomics don’t work.

[SouthpawJeff]

I use it mostly for playing chords in fingerstyle pieces where strumming would not be correct. Sometimes I’m anchored, sometimes I’m not, whatever works best for me to play what I’m playing. If you can use it for chording why shouldn’t you use it for picking?

Good luck,
Jeff

[Guitar Slim II]

Originally Posted by piper_L

Oddly enough, harp players are also strongly discouraged from using the pinky finger. It’s always struck me as odd, not to use all the tools at your disposal. And it’s not really a question of strength, etc. - look how much we ask of the pinky on the fretting hand!

So use it as you wish, invent new picking patterns. Amaze your friends!

I think it's because the pinkie is so much shorter than the other fingers. To get it "into play" you have to adjust the hand in such a way as to inhibit the mobility and alter the angle of attack of the rest of the fingers-- which affects both technique and tone. That's probably why harp players don't use it either.

Of course, this is all in terms of conventional, classical-based technique. Flamenco players use the pinkie regularly. It's used in strumming and percussive techniques, and some players also pluck with it. I think there's a flamenco 5-finger tremolo technique.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Guitar Slim II

I think it's because the pinkie is so much shorter than the other fingers. To get it "into play" you have to adjust the hand in such a way as to inhibit the mobility and alter the angle of attack of the rest of the fingers-- which affects both technique and tone. That's probably why harp players don't use it either.

Of course, this is all in terms of conventional, classical-based technique. Flamenco players use the pinkie regularly. It's used in strumming and percussive techniques, and some players also pluck with it. I think there's a flamenco 5-finger tremolo technique.

Speaking as someone who has worked a classical and flamenco player for the last 15 years or so, the pinky length is not the issue as it is set lower in the palm (at the large knuckle or MCP joint) than the others, or to put it another way when the fingers are in a flexed (playing) position, all the fingertips are level anyhow, we don't play guitar with our fingers out straight. You should be able to hold a pencil between your thumb and four finger tips quite comfortably and without the pinky having to stretch in any way.

Also, as mentioned in earlier posts it is not a matter of lack of strength as the grip strength on the pinky side of the palm is actually stronger than the index side.

As regards classical guitar technique, pinky is seldom used as 99.9% of the repertoire does not require it, it's that simple. If you follow the evolution of technique from the lute it makes things clearer.

Certainly the pinky has less independence than the other fingers and there are physiological reasons for this. The A finger suffers the same problem, though to a lesser extent. I won't bore people with the biology.

There are however some modern compositions (eg Villa Lobos) which benefit from a five fingered approach in places, there is actually a published modern classical method (Charles Postlewaite) which promotes a five finger approach to the instrument and there is an acknowledgement in any case that developing the pinky is regarded as a a good thing, not something bad to be avoided, for balancing out the hand and improving overall control (eg see Scott Tenants' Pumping Nylon).

It's correct that the pinkie is used in flamenco frequently for strumming, but not for plucking and not for the five note tremolo, which is fingered PIAMI.

[SunnyDee]

For me, it's nothing to do with the finger, it's the standard tuning and the way chords are formed. It makes sense to me to always hit the bass note with my thumb, so I don't need the pinky for the other strings. Maybe in a different style I would. I don't anchor my hand but my upper arm rests on the guitar right above the elbow.

[jwayne]

Originally Posted by beninma

(snip)

I watched a video recently with Tommy Emmanuel really emphatically claiming it was better to anchor. He said something like, "I want to be on the same team as Atkins/Travis/Haggard, they all anchored, I'm on that team, it's the winning team."

And Django played masterfully with only two fretting fingers.

Just because it's A winning team doesn't mean it is THE best way to do things.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

As regards classical guitar technique, pinky is seldom used as 99.9% of the repertoire does not require it, it's that simple.

Agree with your post though this point is bit of a chicken versus egg argument.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Agree with your post though this point is bit of a chicken versus egg argument.

There is no argument here, I'm simply stating a fact. CG technique is taught to in order to play the repertoire.

Actually early repertoire was played with just PIM, and some traditionalists will still play it that way for aesthetic and interpretational reasons. The work of Sor is a good example. The addition of the A finger, with composers writing material that actually required 4 fingers, came later.

Only in modern times are we seeing the emergence of repertoire that requires, or at least benefits from, the use of the pinky.

So the repertoire drives technique, that's the way it has always been.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

So the repertoire drives technique, that's the way it has always been.

That is the thing, it's a combination of both, at least if the composer plays or is at least cognizant second hand of the limitations and issues of the instruments.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by thechariot1x

So I've noticed that most guitar teachers and books do not use the 5th (pinky) finger for finger picking, they only suggest using the first 4. I've never found an explanation of why that was though (so maybe you all can tell me). Is it bad to use the 5th finger in finger picking? my thinking has always been why give up 20% of my picking potential, plus it just feels unnatural to me to not have my 5th finger doing anything.

Hi tc1x...

I had a student who played thumb-n-four and he was quite good at it. But he failed to demonstrate any advantages to it. I do not think it is bad, but I am certainly not ambivalent about the topic.

Most well voiced chords on guitar are well suited to a thumb-n-3 finger approach, but Thumb-n-four will get you a 5th note if you are playing complex jazz (and strumming will give you six notes simultaneously). It's also another digit to manage in the delicate fingerstyle dance and at times isn't necessary.

If you really think playing is about maximum fingers in motion on strings simultaneously then your 20% loss statement makes sense.

But if it's about playing great music, there are an awful lot of great thumb-n-two finger players in this world. I find that if I streamline chords and voicing in my arrangements (I write my arrangements), keeping things simple/pure/dialed-back a bit helps the melody tends to cut through better, and stays prominent.

Sometimes more notes just makes the sound muddy. Just my 2Cents worth.

[jwayne]

FWIW.