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Old 05-30-2020, 09:25 AM
DesertRatt DesertRatt is offline
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Default Looking for Advice on "Old School" 4-Trackers

I'm somewhat new to music recording. A year or so ago I bought a Tascam PortaStudio DP-008EX to play with, and was not happy with the paradigm shift from "knobs" to "Menu Scrolling." I can get decent recordings, but the process is not rewarding to me. I'm a certified analog geezer, and never have embraced the cheap plastic, teeny-tiny world of nested menus, and ludicrously tiny gray type on teensy weenie black plastic buttons.

Since I only do this for my own amusement - as a way to pass the time before "time's up!" - -I enjoy the process of things as much as the outcome. Well, to get on with it, I bought a Fostex X-34 cassette 4-tracker and really enjoyed making tapes! I love the clunky old thing, BUT, it does have some serious performance shortcomings - lacking good bass, lacking decent highs, and I knew when I paid not much for it that it was a cheap-o.

Now, I'd really like to get a HIGH END example of a cassette 4-tracker. Something with semi-pro sort of construction, robustness and great features. Something durable, that will be fun to use.

I've been considering the older Tascams, and now have also discovered the Audio-Technica beast.

I am wondering is anyone is still using these, and has any advice on what units are the "real gems to own"? For example, I know a lot of the Tascam models have a big problem with the plastic buttons busting off. Things like that. I'm not too concerned with the cost of a good unit, but more concerned with quality, robustness, and "vibe".

Thanks for any comments or recs!
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Old 05-30-2020, 10:24 AM
paulp1960 paulp1960 is offline
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Well there are loads of 4 track cassette recorders on eBay but the problem is that they are all so old. Nobody has sold these things new for a very long time.
Even the best cassette recorder has limited bass and treble extension compared to better analog or digital recorders. You could find a Tascam 4 track reel to reel tape recorder but these seem to go for quite high prices s/h and they are also old and prone to failure.

Do you own an i-Pad? If so you could get an audio interface, microphone and some basic (or not so basic) recording software. At least with a medium sized touch sensitive color screen you would have easier access than using something with a tiny display, and the sound quality could be potentially very high, depending on microphone and interface.
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Old 05-30-2020, 10:31 AM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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The disadvantages of the cassette format far outweigh any consideration of their "ease of use" appeal.

I purchased one of the top of the line all solenoid operated Tascam 4 track cassette studios new and just found tape hiss and poor sound quality too limiting for me. I kept it in a box for several years and was going to toss it a few years ago but a friend of mine told me they were bringing good money on ebay. Sure enough, I sold it for almost what it cost me new.

You might consider that all of the new multi-trackers don't have the same obstacles to their use. I always recommend the Zoom R8, for basic recording to those opposed to the difficulties of dealing with menus and criptic operating controls. It doesn't require a lot of menu diving and is actually a lot like an old school cassette recorder, but without wow, flutter, tape hiss, poor fidelity, etc. that is part and parcel of cassette decks.
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Old 05-30-2020, 10:38 AM
paulp1960 paulp1960 is offline
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The Zoom R8 is definitely one way to go. Or even Tascam DP-24SD with 24 tracks and probably easier to operate with the bigger screen, but more expensive.
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Old 05-30-2020, 10:44 AM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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Hi DR,

I understand why you like working with analog gear. It appeals to me, too, though these days I record on a computer using Steinberg Cubase. I just made myself get used to it.

I have a fairly old Tascam 234 4-channel cassette recorder that is in excellent condition. It has been sitting on a shelf in my studio for quite a few years and has very few hours on it. It was quite expensive when new (I think 1985) and I hardly used it. Tascam used to advertise this as "the world's most professional 4-track cassette machine." Here is a Reverb listing on this Tascam 234 recorder.

I'd be glad to sell it to you if you are interested. PM me if interested. You can Google "Tascam 234" and get a lot of information about this old machine.

I can't say that I am an expert at cassette machines. I used this Tascam 234 so little because I preferred to use my Tascam 388 reel-to-reel recorder with built-in mixer. It still have that machine too, but it was used a lot and needs new heads.

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Last edited by Glennwillow; 05-30-2020 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 05-30-2020, 11:42 AM
DesertRatt DesertRatt is offline
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Thanks for all the comments, folks - - I appreciate them.

I do pretty simple recordings: 2 mics, vocal and acoustic guitar, and then maybe 2 tracks of over dubs, mix it down to a stereo mix. I use an external effects box for some reverb, or delay, and other simple effects.

As a guy who still wildly prefers the sound of LPs over CDs, tube amps over SS, old POTS network Western Electric phone calls over any cell phone, and prefers film over digital cameras (not even a close call), I DO realize I am an anachronism. It often makes no sense to moderns. I get that.

I will look at the Zoom in more detail, but superficially, it looks very much in the same paradigm as my Tascam digital.

Thanks for the offer of that sweet looking 4-track recorder, but I like the combo mixer/recorder much better.

Again, thanks for the many good comments. I'm probably just going to have to take a few chances on some refurbs in the vintage market.

Play on!
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Old 05-31-2020, 05:14 PM
PeterM PeterM is offline
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Spent my early years in recording studios. OF course all analog. Got out of the business when most went digital...I hated that sound. I have no issues with digital since about 2005 or so...technology marches on (or possibly my aging ears are at work here)

There are 4 things possible to "maybe" get your highs to 13 or 14K.

1. Clean the tape heads
2. DO NOT under any circumstances use Dolby.
3. Use metal tape
4. Saturate that tape ...it is actually pretty difficult to overdrive metal tape assuming the deck is in good shape (tape heads.

Bass response should be OK...if you are unhappy, then look to the deck. The playback system is very important of course...computer speakers, ear buds, YUCK!

Good luck!
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Old 05-31-2020, 06:18 PM
Shepsdad Shepsdad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulp1960 View Post
The Zoom R8 is definitely one way to go. Or even Tascam DP-24SD with 24 tracks and probably easier to operate with the bigger screen, but more expensive.
This would be my suggestion. I actually have a Zoom R16, and I was surprised at how similar the operation/workflow was to my old 424 and 488 cassette machines. Of course there’s more of a learning curve, because the R16 and similar units have so much more capability than the old cassette.

I’ve even bought a few Boss Br532s off of eBay recently, as that was my first digital multi tracker. If you can find a decent one and some media cards, you’d be amazed at how easy to operate and functional the thing is. I’ve recently bought two of them for less than $60 each, and one included 4 128mb cards.
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Old 05-31-2020, 06:20 PM
TNO TNO is offline
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The recorder you already have has knobs for pan and effects. I was able to record and mix a song without reading the manual. Sounds friggin' great for what it is. Cassette machine would be a huge step down, IMO.
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Old 05-31-2020, 06:47 PM
Shepsdad Shepsdad is offline
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Forgot to add, I have a dp008 I bought a few years ago when I decided to get back into recording, all the reviews I read talked about how easy it was to use, but I found it to be infuriating scrolling through menus all the time, I can’t stand that thing!
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Old 05-31-2020, 07:11 PM
DesertRatt DesertRatt is offline
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With some digging, I found two very nice 4 track cassette machines. An Audio-Technica RMX64, and a clean Tascam 424 MkII. I bought the Tascam, and I am working on getting the other.

I think both of these machines are far superior to my Fostex, which probably needs a good servicing and may even need repairs.

I surveyed some of the digital recorders by reading the user manuals. They are just minor variations of the digital unit I already have, and I didn't develop any interest in them. Or put another way, I already have one of those in the DP-008EX - which does the job, but is an uninspiring tool to use (like using a pocket telephone to photograph the Grand Canyon sort of thing)

Using the new higher-end cassette 4-trackers with Type II tape I should easily be able to achieve 30Hz to 16Khz, which is plenty of fidelity for anything I will be doing, and offers that soulful analog sound.
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Old 05-31-2020, 07:20 PM
Chipotle Chipotle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertRatt View Post
which does the job, but is an uninspiring tool to use (like using a pocket telephone to photograph the Grand Canyon sort of thing)
I don't know what phone you have in your pocket, but the camera in high-end cell phones these days can give pro-level gear a run for its money. People have used them to shoot entire feature films.

I also don't think analog gear is any easier to use than digital. In some ways, it's more difficult. It's just different, and you do have to commit to learning a different workflow. I've only used portable recorders a few times, but tbh I think it's far easier on a laptop with a DAW than either a portable digital OR and old cassette multitrack.

Of course, you're free to create however you like. But to me, "soulful analog" just means tape hiss.
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Old 05-31-2020, 07:28 PM
DesertRatt DesertRatt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepsdad View Post
Forgot to add, I have a dp008 I bought a few years ago when I decided to get back into recording, all the reviews I read talked about how easy it was to use, but I found it to be infuriating scrolling through menus all the time, I can’t stand that thing!
IMO, it's just what happens when "programmers" take over design of products. Give a programmer a micro-processor and 3-buttons and they will come up with 1,000 features nested into 100 menus and believe it's the coolest thing ever invented. Because it takes no effort and adds zero recurring cost to the product.

I watched this same thing happen when cameras went digital. The user manuals grew from 8 pages to 100 pages and then 200 pages, and the pictures being taken were fundamentally WORSE than what photographers had achieved in the 1940s!

But of course, if one grows up with a new paradigm, say moving a mouse to pretend to turn a knob on a screen, then it seems normal. So, anyone born after say 1995 finds all this stuff natural.
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Old 05-31-2020, 09:34 PM
DesertRatt DesertRatt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipotle View Post
I don't know what phone you have in your pocket, but the camera in high-end cell phones these days can give pro-level gear a run for its money. People have used them to shoot entire feature films.

I also don't think analog gear is any easier to use than digital. In some ways, it's more difficult. It's just different, and you do have to commit to learning a different workflow. I've only used portable recorders a few times, but tbh I think it's far easier on a laptop with a DAW than either a portable digital OR and old cassette multitrack.

Of course, you're free to create however you like. But to me, "soulful analog" just means tape hiss.
People have lots of different priorities. For some people the process (journey, if you will) is as important as the destination. For others only the destination counts, and tools and process are irrelevant. Using computer softwares to emulate Ohm's Law, and physical connections, switches and controls is for me an inauthentic experience. In the exact same way that "pretending to "drive a race car" on a computer screen offers exactly zero pleasure or enjoyment. The paradigm shift is too absurd for my tastes.

Analog recordings have a distinctly different sound character from digital. I enjoy and prefer the former, probably because for the first 50 years of my life my ears were trained and tuned to the analog sound. A little tape hiss won't bother me at all.

Thanks for the comments!
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Old 06-12-2020, 08:26 PM
Rolliet Rolliet is offline
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I've had great luck with a Tascam MKIII using Type II cassettes. I also use a Otari 5050 reel to reel and a zoom H6 digital recorder. They are just different tools in the tool box. Cassettes can sound wonderful, even hi-fi.
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