The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Custom Shop

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 01-02-2015, 02:49 PM
OddManOut OddManOut is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Carson City, Nv (Want a jackrabbit? We've got extras!)
Posts: 3,203
Default 000-12 or OM?

I will be having a new build by Tahoe Guitars starting in the next couple of weeks. I am trying to decide between a 000-12 and an OM (it is currently listed as a 000-12 in my sig), and I'm having a tough time deciding. The guitar will be Carpathian Spruce over Madagascar Rosewood, curly maple neck, 25.4" scale.

My thoughts so far:

I see a 000-12 as having a bit more bass due to the slightly longer body, and more overall warmth ("snuggle") due to the 12-fret configuration. A 000-12 is my favorite guitar from aesthetic and ergonomic points of view.

An OM would have a a bit less bass, and more overall snap ("bark") due to the 14-fret configuration. I love OMs and consider them (along with SJs) to be the most utilitarian of guitars. A good OM is just a wonderful thing to experience.

I suppose Madi RW will tend to be strong on bass, so it seems an OM would have the potential to be a bit more balanced. The last few Tahoe OMs Larry has built have a particularly open tonal quality.

Any input you wish to give is invited. Have I missed something obvious? Yes...I have been discussing this with Larry. Just looking for other input.

Thanks!
__________________
Martin 00-18G; Waterloo WL-S; Furch: V1 OOM-SR, Green G-SR, Blue OM-CM; Tahoe Guitar Co.: OM (Adi/Hog), 000-12 (Carp/FG Mahog), 00-12 (Carp/Sinker Mahog), 00-14 (Adi/Ovangkol);

In the night you hide from the madman
You're longing to be
But it all comes out on the inside
Eventually
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-02-2015, 07:38 PM
David Wren's Avatar
David Wren David Wren is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 1,960
Default

A couple of thoughts ... if you're committed to the curly maple neck, depending on the species of wood, the 12-fret model might have a better physical balance (i.e. not neck heavy). I know sound is your first concern, as it should be, but it's food for thought. Also ... I personally don't find that Madagascar rosewood adds bass to the equation, but different builders can sometimes pull different tonalities out of the same wood.
__________________
David Wren
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-02-2015, 08:09 PM
Bruce Sexauer's Avatar
Bruce Sexauer Bruce Sexauer is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Petaluma, CA, USA
Posts: 7,525
Default

You seem like you have a great argument for a 13 fretter. And I don't mean to be glib, I am a BIG fan of the 13 fretter; I mean a body length between the two standards, about 20" long.
__________________
Bruce
http://www.sexauerluthier.com/
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-02-2015, 08:34 PM
ChuckS's Avatar
ChuckS ChuckS is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 3,644
Default

What music will you be playing? That answer should help you decide.
__________________
Chuck

2012 Carruth 12-fret 000 in Pernambuco and Adi
2010 Poling Sierra in Cuban Mahogany and Lutz
2015 Posch 13-fret 00 in Indian Rosewood and Adi
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-02-2015, 09:08 PM
printer2 printer2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Middle of Canada
Posts: 5,096
Default

A 13 fret fanned fret?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-02-2015, 09:50 PM
OddManOut OddManOut is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Carson City, Nv (Want a jackrabbit? We've got extras!)
Posts: 3,203
Default

Quote:
if you're committed to the curly maple neck, depending on the species of wood, the 12-fret model might have a better physical balance (i.e. not neck heavy). I know sound is your first concern, as it should be, but it's food for thought.
Ahhh...thanks for this tip, David. Larry and I can do some comparison weights to his mahogany neck stock. I can opt for a mahogany neck, of course.

Quote:
I personally don't find that Madagascar rosewood adds bass to the equation, but different builders can sometimes pull different tonalities out of the same wood.
Interesting...I chose Madi for rosewood tonal "flavor" without the the heavy low end I often hear with EIR. I am hoping for a bit more clarity than with EIR, as well. Maybe I am over thinking the bass issue.

Quote:
You seem like you have a great argument for a 13 fretter. And I don't mean to be glib, I am a BIG fan of the 13 fretter; I mean a body length between the two standards, about 20" long.
Thanks, Bruce. I hadn't considered this. Interesting idea.

Quote:
What music will you be playing? That answer should help you decide.
Gosh...I play swingy, bluesy, rocky, folky...pretty eclectic, fairly hard picking attack, particularly with a flat pick. Combo of flat pick, finger strumming and finger picking. In this sense, the OM is a bit better due to its versatility. Larry's 000-12 tends a bit more the the finger strum/pick side, though they flat pick well.

The particular Carpathian top I've chosen is very light and very strong (it rings very nicely, as well), so I would expect very good dynamic range out of this one.

Thanks for your input, everyone!
__________________
Martin 00-18G; Waterloo WL-S; Furch: V1 OOM-SR, Green G-SR, Blue OM-CM; Tahoe Guitar Co.: OM (Adi/Hog), 000-12 (Carp/FG Mahog), 00-12 (Carp/Sinker Mahog), 00-14 (Adi/Ovangkol);

In the night you hide from the madman
You're longing to be
But it all comes out on the inside
Eventually
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-03-2015, 09:02 AM
OddManOut OddManOut is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Carson City, Nv (Want a jackrabbit? We've got extras!)
Posts: 3,203
Default

It's going to be an OM. I want this guitar to be as utilitarian as possible. We shall see if the curly maple neck is workable.

Thanks again for your input!!!
__________________
Martin 00-18G; Waterloo WL-S; Furch: V1 OOM-SR, Green G-SR, Blue OM-CM; Tahoe Guitar Co.: OM (Adi/Hog), 000-12 (Carp/FG Mahog), 00-12 (Carp/Sinker Mahog), 00-14 (Adi/Ovangkol);

In the night you hide from the madman
You're longing to be
But it all comes out on the inside
Eventually
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-03-2015, 09:29 AM
iim7V7IM7's Avatar
iim7V7IM7 iim7V7IM7 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: An Exit Off the Turnpike in New Jersey
Posts: 5,152
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OddManOut View Post
It's going to be an OM. I want this guitar to be as utilitarian as possible. We shall see if the curly maple neck is workable.

Thanks again for your input!!!
I would suggest that you at least have a conversation with your luthier about:

1) The relative weight of a sugar maple neck vs. a mahogany neck and the balance of the guitar.
2) The mechanical stability of a maple neck vs. a mahogany neck.

I understand the aesthetic lure of maple on a maple body but I think it is worth having a talk about these two aspects before deciding.

My $.02
__________________
A bunch of nice archtops, flattops, a gypsy & nylon strings…
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-03-2015, 09:36 AM
OddManOut OddManOut is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Carson City, Nv (Want a jackrabbit? We've got extras!)
Posts: 3,203
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7 View Post
I would suggest that you at least have a conversation with your luthier about:

1) The relative weight of a sugar maple neck vs. a mahogany neck and the balance of the guitar.
2) The mechanical stability of a maple neck vs. a mahogany neck.

I understand the aesthetic lure of maple on a maple body but I think it is worth having a talk about these two aspects before deciding.

My $.02

Thanks for the tip. This conversation with my luthier is in progress. I may indeed opt for a couple of curly maple lams in a primarily mahogany five-piece neck.
__________________
Martin 00-18G; Waterloo WL-S; Furch: V1 OOM-SR, Green G-SR, Blue OM-CM; Tahoe Guitar Co.: OM (Adi/Hog), 000-12 (Carp/FG Mahog), 00-12 (Carp/Sinker Mahog), 00-14 (Adi/Ovangkol);

In the night you hide from the madman
You're longing to be
But it all comes out on the inside
Eventually
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-03-2015, 11:24 AM
theEdwinson's Avatar
theEdwinson theEdwinson is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fairhope, AL
Posts: 1,653
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer View Post
You seem like you have a great argument for a 13 fretter. And I don't mean to be glib, I am a BIG fan of the 13 fretter; I mean a body length between the two standards, about 20" long.
What Bruce said! In the last few years, I have made the thirteen-frets-to-body configuration the standard, default way I build my 0, 00, and 000 size guitars. To me (and a good number of appreciative clients) this is an ideal compromise between the extra reach of a 14-fretter, and the gorgeous, rich tone you often get with a great 12-fretter. It's the best of both worlds, I think.
__________________
Edwinson
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-03-2015, 06:44 PM
OddManOut OddManOut is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Carson City, Nv (Want a jackrabbit? We've got extras!)
Posts: 3,203
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Wren View Post
A couple of thoughts ... if you're committed to the curly maple neck, depending on the species of wood, the 12-fret model might have a better physical balance (i.e. not neck heavy).

Quote:
I would suggest that you at least have a conversation with your luthier about:

1) The relative weight of a sugar maple neck vs. a mahogany neck and the balance of the guitar.
2) The mechanical stability of a maple neck vs. a mahogany neck.

I understand the aesthetic lure of maple on a maple body but I think it is worth having a talk about these two aspects before deciding.
Luthier Larry Nair and I spent a couple of hours calculating the density of various neck blanks and making related calculations.

We calculated the density of three examples of curly eastern maple (likely Red Maple and/or Sugar Maple). The densities ranged from 36 lb/cu. ft to 42 lb/cu ft. Examples of Honduran Mahogany ranged from 36 lb/cu ft. to 38 lb/cu ft. So, based on these examples, we have a maximum of
(42 - 36)/36 = 16.7% additional weight for maple compared to mahogany.

Larry happens to have three complete necks (sans tuners and frets). We weighed the necks with the lightest tuners (Gotoh open back) he had. We then weighed an ebony fretboard, headplate, trussrod and the tuners. These parts sans neck accounted for 65% to 70% of the full neck weight. That is, the primary portion of the neck would account for 30% to 35% of the total neck weight. These percentages would be more if lighter woods such as EIR were used. I will be using ebony. We did not include fret weight in our calculations, but this would further reduce these percentages.

So, assuming the the largest percentage for the neck weight and the maximum additional weight percentage for the maple, we have .167 x .35 = .0585 = 5.85% difference in weight due to using the maple.

A big effect on neck weight and balance would be the choice of tuners. There was 80 grams difference between the Gotoh open backs and a set of Grover Rotomatics. All of this weight is at the end of the neck.

Larry and I carefully examined the maple neck stock and found it to drift off quarter on one end. There were also some cosmetic inconsistencies on the quartered faces. Given the inherently less stable nature of curly wood, I decided to go with a mahogany/curly maple/walnut five-piece neck. The maple lams will be 1/4 inch each, set on either side of a 1/8 inch center lam of walnut.

Anyway, an interesting study of some examples of neck woods. Again, I appreciate everyone's input.
__________________
Martin 00-18G; Waterloo WL-S; Furch: V1 OOM-SR, Green G-SR, Blue OM-CM; Tahoe Guitar Co.: OM (Adi/Hog), 000-12 (Carp/FG Mahog), 00-12 (Carp/Sinker Mahog), 00-14 (Adi/Ovangkol);

In the night you hide from the madman
You're longing to be
But it all comes out on the inside
Eventually
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-04-2015, 07:01 PM
David Wren's Avatar
David Wren David Wren is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 1,960
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OddManOut View Post
Larry happens to have three complete necks (sans tuners and frets). We weighed the necks with the lightest tuners (Gotoh open back) he had. We then weighed an ebony fretboard, headplate, trussrod and the tuners. These parts sans neck accounted for 65% to 70% of the full neck weight. That is, the primary portion of the neck would account for 30% to 35% of the total neck weight. These percentages would be more if lighter woods such as EIR were used. I will be using ebony. We did not include fret weight in our calculations, but this would further reduce these percentages.

So, assuming the the largest percentage for the neck weight and the maximum additional weight percentage for the maple, we have .167 x .35 = .0585 = 5.85% difference in weight due to using the maple.

A big effect on neck weight and balance would be the choice of tuners. There was 80 grams difference between the Gotoh open backs and a set of Grover Rotomatics. All of this weight is at the end of the neck.
Good point ... interesting analysis.
__________________
David Wren
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-04-2015, 07:33 PM
justonwo's Avatar
justonwo justonwo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 7,120
Default

Very hard to choose between a 000-12 and an OM. It is truly one of those situations where you can't go wrong either way. One of my Brondels is a kind-of OM, and I've found that the combination of Carpathian spruce and Madagascar rosewood really brings out the bass (as compared to another Brondel model A-2c I own that is Adirondack and mahogany). I look forward to your build thread!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-05-2015, 06:47 AM
The Bard Rocks The Bard Rocks is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mohawk Valley
Posts: 8,709
Default neck wood

My guess is two-fold. First, the tuners will probably make a bigger difference in the balance of the neck than the choice of wood in this case. MRW is not particularly light and I suspect it will act as something of a counter weight to the slight additional weight the maple has. If it were a mahogany body, that might be different. Secondly, if you decide to go with a 13 fretter, the weight of it all will matter even less, everything being closer to the fulcrum, so to speak.

Curly maple will make a distinctive neck and should look really good. I have a couple of maple-necked (not curly, unfortunately) guitars and feel they balance just fine.
__________________
The Bard Rocks

Fay OM Sinker Redwood/Tiger Myrtle
Sexauer L00 Adk/Magnolia For Sale
Hatcher Jumbo Bearclaw/"Bacon" Padauk
Goodall Jumbo POC/flamed Mahogany
Appollonio 12 POC/Myrtle
MJ Franks Resonator, all Australian Blackwood
Goodman J45 Lutz/fiddleback Mahogany
Blackbird "Lucky 13" - carbon fiber
'31 National Duolian
+ many other stringed instruments.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Custom Shop

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=