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  #16  
Old 12-07-2021, 08:22 AM
j3ffr0 j3ffr0 is offline
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I think your recording sounds great, and I do not hear any harshness.

I have some KM184s. I thought I might be experiencing some harshness or shrillness with them, but in my case a lot of it turned out to be string choice. Elixr 80/20 Nanowebs are pretty sizzly, when I switched to the PBs a lot of that went away.

So you have a great sounding recording to begin with... One thing you might try that might get you the warmth you are looking for is some bass enhancement. The low-mids sound very well represented to me, but I'm talking below 80hz. Acoustic guitars don't have a ton down there to begin with, but a little added rumble might make it feel warm. Lots of different low end enhancement plugins around. I've messed with the Little Labs VOG and Vitamin Enhancer.
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  #17  
Old 12-07-2021, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
Yep. That's why I like the 184 less than a lot of other mics costing around the same amount. The vintage 84s I've heard don't have that issue. I'm not sure if that's something that happens because of age or because of a design change. I just know that 184s aren't my favorite sdc.
I have no experience with either the 84 or the 184 but just looking at the frequency response graphs (which admittedly do not tell all the story) there is a substantial difference

I wonder if on the 184 is it perhaps a combination of not only the hump which actually starts at about 5k and goes all the way to 15k and the low end roll off, starting at 200 Hz that is possibly contributing to what some perceive as a lack of "warmth"

From the Neumann website Fq response of the 184


From a post on GS Fq response of the 84 (which looks to be virtually flat from 90 Hz to 15k

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  #18  
Old 12-07-2021, 09:43 AM
jklotz jklotz is offline
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Thanks for all the input guys, ya'll are awesome! You've given me some ideas to play around with for sure.

Let me say it's not the guitar, that guitar sounds amazing, well, to me anyway. And my playing, well, it is what it is, warts and all. Maybe harsh was the wrong way to describe it. I probably should have said clinical. Maybe a little sterile? I'm looking for more of an analogue sound. It's so difficult to describe what I'm talking about. Maybe a bit of musical harmonic distortion, like the original KM84's and Neve consoles had? That's where the idea for a tube preamp or ribbon mic came from.

Like I said, I'm fairly happy with the sound. It just seems to be missing a little something.

I'll play around with it a bit more. Thanks again for all the help.
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  #19  
Old 12-07-2021, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by jklotz View Post
Thanks for all the input guys, ya'll are awesome! You've given me some ideas to play around with for sure.

Let me say it's not the guitar, that guitar sounds amazing, well, to me anyway. And my playing, well, it is what it is, warts and all. Maybe harsh was the wrong way to describe it. I probably should have said clinical. Maybe a little sterile? I'm looking for more of an analogue sound. It's so difficult to describe what I'm talking about. Maybe a bit of musical harmonic distortion, like the original KM84's and Neve consoles had? That's where the idea for a tube preamp or ribbon mic came from.

Like I said, I'm fairly happy with the sound. It just seems to be missing a little something.

I'll play around with it a bit more. Thanks again for all the help.

Far be it from me to discourage anyone from getting analog gear and I happen to think it can give a certain something,,,, but that often comes at a pretty steep hit to the old wallet.
But from what you are saying ,,,,it occurs to me, maybe if UAD has an analog tape type plugin you might try a smidge of that. If the plugin algorithm is well done it should impart some mild analog harmonic distortion, without being too overtly noticeable. Myself I would put it on a parallel track, and send the guitar signal to it ....Which IMO is ideal for time domain FX's - delay - reverb- tape emulation- etc.

One other thought that room looks to be pretty live and since the mic's are out of view I'm guessing the are basically at the camera distance ? If so then they are picking up a fair amount of room reflection (which depending on the modes could be building up unwanted frequencies or comb filtering some causing a more " sterile" sound.

Me with that guitar and those mics I would definitely try to record in a less live room, or buy or make, some broad band absorber panels
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Last edited by KevWind; 12-07-2021 at 11:08 AM.
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  #20  
Old 12-07-2021, 11:36 AM
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Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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Im out of town, and can only listen over ear buds. But I think the guitar sounds very nice on your video. But I agree with Kev. If you want a warmer sound, Id start by micing closer. You get a low end boost from proximity effect, and reduce the effect of your room acoustics. Everyone likes to knock the KM184, but its used all the time on acoustic guitar, and works great. Listen to Eric Skye’s new duet cd for a nice example. You can play with EQ, and some plugins, but mic placement is likely to have the greatest effect.
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  #21  
Old 12-07-2021, 12:00 PM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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It's hard to know how close the KM-184 mics were to the guitar, but getting closer will give you the benefit of the proximity effect with more bass as Doug Young has noted. I was also thinking of Eric Skye's recordings and how good they sound, but I also noted that his mic placement was about 8" away, which is close enough to generate a bass boost.

I look at the frequency response curve and ask myself, why would Neumann do that with the rolled off bass response starting at 200 hz? I have to think that they were anticipating the expected bass boost from the proximity effect. Of course, I'm just guessing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
...
From the Neumann website Fq response of the 184

...
Once the song is recorded, as is the case here, I thought Brent Hahn's idea of building in a little bass boost down in the mid-100 hz frequencies and below, might help a lot. Clever idea...

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  #22  
Old 12-07-2021, 12:01 PM
jklotz jklotz is offline
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Thanks guys, again, much appreciated.

I live in a big loft building, so the room is quite big with tall ceilings. I was against the wall, maybe 5 or 6 feet out from it. There could have been some reflections, but the room is pretty open and airy. The mics were just out of the frame, actually, they were in the frame but I cropped in to cut them out because I though they looked distracting. They were at about the bottom of the guitar, pointed up towards the sound hole in a spread out X/Y pattern. Maybe a 18" away, possibly a little more.

I'm going to take your suggestions and do some test recordings today or tomorrow and see what I can come up with. I'll post the results here if I have any discoveries of relevance.

Thanks again.
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  #23  
Old 12-07-2021, 01:06 PM
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It sounds like there's plenty of warmth in there to play with. I'd be tempted to experiment with one mic outside and in front of your knee pointing up behind the bridge (once done for me at the BBC), then add whatever you thing is missing to taste.

Doesn't really sound like there's a whole lot wrong to me, though.
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  #24  
Old 12-07-2021, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennwillow View Post
...I was also thinking of Eric Skye's recordings and how good they sound, but I also noted that his mic placement was about 8" away, which is close enough to generate a bass boost.
..
Not to drift too far from topic, but I went and measured my chopsticks that I mentioned in that video and mics were actually 9 inches away But still close enough for some bass boost I'm sure. And that room was less than ideal.

As per the 184’s, I actually “traded up” to a pair of Schoeps cardioids since then. That, I think, completes my SDC journey. But I still love the 184’s. And feel compelled to defend them sometimes - maybe because I’ve spent too much time on Gearspace where they get crucified daily.

I went from Geffell M300 to the 184’s to the Schoeps in a relatively short span. I know these mics may look very different on paper, and for sure in comments online, and maybe I just don’t have well developed ears, but think all of these mics are so close. I mean, I do hear subtle things for sure, but the difference I hear from moving a microphone less than an inch in any direction is magnitude greater to me.

And compared into internet folklore..Seesh. For example, online the difference between the m300’s (which I love, and used on my Ballads and Blues album) and KM184s that you might read on Gearspace as being “night and day.” Or how the 184’s are “incredibly harsh” in comparison to the m300’s... I happened to have both in my (less than great) home office one day and made little comparison video of them. Now I did try my best to measure everything just so, and level match, etc, but I sure ain’t saying it was scientific either https://youtu.be/7LuQmsNXMAQ I think in the end I preferred the 184’s, or was it the other way around? But I wouldn’t think twice about editing a comp between them.
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  #25  
Old 12-07-2021, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jklotz View Post
Thanks guys, again, much appreciated.

I live in a big loft building, so the room is quite big with tall ceilings. I was against the wall, maybe 5 or 6 feet out from it. There could have been some reflections, but the room is pretty open and airy. The mics were just out of the frame, actually, they were in the frame but I cropped in to cut them out because I though they looked distracting. They were at about the bottom of the guitar, pointed up towards the sound hole in a spread out X/Y pattern. Maybe a 18" away, possibly a little more.

I'm going to take your suggestions and do some test recordings today or tomorrow and see what I can come up with. I'll post the results here if I have any discoveries of relevance.

Thanks again.
Try moving the mics towards the bottom of the guitar more, or point them at a point below the sound hole - avoid pointing a mic towards the fretboard. Or, instead of xy horizontally, do an xy vertically with the vertical line in front of the bridge.
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  #26  
Old 12-08-2021, 05:43 AM
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...maybe I just don’t have well developed ears...
That was a great, very helpful post but I ain't buying this part for a minute, Eric!

Cheers,
Brent
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  #27  
Old 12-08-2021, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by min7b5 View Post
Now I did try my best to measure everything just so, and level match, etc, but I sure ain’t saying it was scientific either https://youtu.be/7LuQmsNXMAQ I think in the end I preferred the 184’s, or was it the other way around? But I wouldn’t think twice about editing a comp between them.
Humm On just some Shure In ear Monitors on my laptop I think the levels are close.
I do think the 184's are just a slight bit brighter I am only guessing that could be from the upper mid hump and the low end roll off and as per the OP a bit more direct, maybe (?)
Now I can see where on solo acoustic they would be fine but I wonder if some of the reputation for being harsh might also be a result using them on multiple instruments (Where the brightness and directness ) could build up and become "harsh" Just musing a thought stream ???????????????????
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