FAT trebles: How to?

[AshrafO]

Dear experienced luthiers,

I am nearing my first build. I have read a lot about guitar construction and
sound over the years and am certain I can achieve a decent tone on my first guitar - BUT there is one thing that concerns me most, that I have never come across specific tips on in voicing, and that is how to give my guitar solid, fat, strong treble notes! I really do not like thin sounding treble strings! I NEED trebles with some solidity to them, at least. Better yet, though, would be something along the lines of someone describing Claxton trebles: "..the most full trebles I have ever heard". Any tips on getting, fat, rich, solid, juicy, meaty trebles? (even how to avoid thin trebles would be appreciated).

Mark? Bruce? And whatever other experienced luthiers help out on here, thank you so much!

P.s. Which builders do you find have the best (and fattest trebles)? I would be curious to know all about them

-Ashraf

[Mark Hatcher]

Originally Posted by AshrafO

Dear experienced luthiers,



I am nearing my first build. I have read a lot about guitar construction and

sound over the years and am certain I can achieve a decent tone on my first guitar - BUT there is one thing that concerns me most, that I have never come across specific tips on in voicing, and that is how to give my guitar solid, fat, strong treble notes! I really do not like thin sounding treble strings! I NEED trebles with some solidity to them, at least. Better yet, though, would be something along the lines of someone describing Claxton trebles: "..the most full trebles I have ever heard". Any tips on getting, fat, rich, solid, juicy, meaty trebles? (even how to avoid thin trebles would be appreciated).



Mark? Bruce? And whatever other experienced luthiers help out on here, thank you so much!



P.s. Which builders do you find have the best (and fattest trebles)? I would be curious to know all about them



-Ashraf

Ashraf I don’t believe there is an answer that can match the simplicity of that question. I’m reading a book “Who we are and How we got here” by David Reich. He’s a geneticist and is talking about trying to trace our history through the current explosion of data coming out in that field. At one point in exasperation with the complexity of all this information he writes “I don’t believe we’ll ever find an elegant intellectual explanation the will leave us emotionally satisfied”. I thought man, that sounds a lot like guitar building to me!

So all that for this emotionally unsatisfying answer. Do everything right.
There are many many things that effect trebles from the wood selection to the depth and placement of the waist in relation to the sound hole. The cross dipole vibration mode is where a lot of your treble comes from so you want to keep that in mind when laying out your bracing.
Often a lifeless treble comes from a way overbuilt guitar but, a floppy under built guitar will kill trebles too.

My best advice on building your first guitar is to work at mastering your skills. The best sounding guitars being made are by accomplished craftsman maintaining an equilibrium of best practices.

Mark

[Bruce Sexauer]

The key to full tone is the same in Guitars as it is in everything else: integrity. In Guitars that means unimpeachable materials, excellent fit and finish, and smooth playing. Don’t forget to change your strings now and again. As a human, being as good as your word will make you look pretty good too.

[redir]

If it was me I would use straight and tall bracing system and have less deflection in the top. Basically what Mark said, an over built guitar. I would also consider making the sound hole a bit larger.

[arie]

in general, it's a bit unusual to build a steel string for trebles. due to the nature of metal strings, the brightness is already there -unlike a classical, with nylon strings where you have to really concentrate on the higher registers because there is already so much bass.

what you can do though is to make those trebles solid, powerful, and sustaining all the way up to the highest fret. this can be achieved by what Bruce is stating; the integrity of the materials and the build.

[TEK]

Originally Posted by redir

If it was me I would use straight and tall bracing system and have less deflection in the top. Basically what Mark said, an over built guitar. I would also consider making the sound hole a bit larger.

Redir, You may have misunderstood what Mark said. He said " Often a lifeless treble comes from a overbuilt guitar"

[redir]

Originally Posted by TEK

Redir, You may have misunderstood what Mark said. He said " Often a lifeless treble comes from a overbuilt guitar"

He actually said 'way overbuilt' and that I would agree. But from my experience a guitar that has a tighter and stiffer top is going to shift the response spectrum in that direction.

Having stiff and heavy sides can also add to the 'sparkle' and higher frequencies in a guitar. I have not built a classical guitar in a while but the next one I build will have mass loaded sides for that reason.

[TEK]

Originally Posted by redir

He actually said 'way overbuilt' and that I would agree. But from my experience a guitar that has a tighter and stiffer top is going to shift the response spectrum in that direction.

Having stiff and heavy sides can also add to the 'sparkle' and higher frequencies in a guitar. I have not built a classical guitar in a while but the next one I build will have mass loaded sides for that reason.

So the key is a "just right" overbuilt guitar.

[redir]

Originally Posted by TEK

So the key is a "just right" overbuilt guitar.

Honestly yeah I think so

I'm actually building one right now. The beauty of using this method is that you can always reach in and remove material. In fact I've really started thinking more and more about doing this as and actual method of building. I use deflection testing now and I really think that has helped me get a grasp on things even though I'm only on my 15th using such a method.
I'm using tall triangular braces which will be easy to 'tune' after the fact.

I have read Trevor Gores book on modal tuning but I have not built one using those principles exactly yet and I question some of it actually though I refrain from commenting since I have not tried it. But there is still lots to learn from those books and some of those principles can be applied to a guitar that is intended on sounding bassy or trebley if there were such words.

[punkybub]

Fat trebles is something I've been looking for in an acoustic guitar for years, after getting a mid-80s Guild GF-60 small jumbo. This guitar (and most of the GF series from Guild I've played) have specifically fat trebles - the e,b and g all have a rich body to them that no other guitar I've played has. It sounds like the e string is wound almost, and the whole top speaks when it's plucked.

I've heard loud trebles from other guitars - but specific "fat" trebles is another deal.

The GF60 has tall, narrow braces that are all scalloped - even the upper X brace. It seems to have a thinner top too, since the top bulges slightly but noticeably right behind the bridge. It's been this way for as long as I've had it and many other of the GF series seem to have similar bulging of the top in that area.

The bridge of this guitar (and most GF series I've seen) is asymmetrical too - not in shape, but in mass, sloping from a full-thickness bass side to a much less thick treble side.

After examining and playing this series of Guilds - all of which have fatter trebles than typical acoustics, and all of which have lightly built tops and bracing - true fat trebles likely won't come from overbuilding.


I love acoustic guitars!

[bausin]

>> At one point in exasperation with the complexity of all this information he writes “I don’t believe we’ll ever find an elegant intellectual explanation the will leave us emotionally satisfied”. I thought man, that sounds a lot like guitar building to me!

That's true in so many areas these days. Astronomy, particle physics, the cure for cancer, to name a few. The more we discover, the more we find that doesn't fit our existing models.