Manzer wedge questions

[jazzizm]

I have commisioned my next guitar. It will be a 12-fret Dreadnought, Martin HD 28 VS-style, short scale, German spruce top, back and sides from smoaked oak (I picked the specific set with a nice amount of sapwood). Neck will be either mahogany or flame maple, fretboard and bridge will be ebony. EVO frets, Schaller tuners, K&K pickup.
As I like the sound but not the heft of those ‘lap pianos’, I figured “why not try a wedge body design?” Obviously, I want both, volume and comfort.
The chosen luthier has never done this (nor has anyone else here in Germany, I suppose) but he is willing to give it a go. So it’s going to be a bit of an experiment.
As I understand the concept, the back of the guitar is slanted towards the top so the guitar’s treble side is deeper than the bass side:



What are good starting points for the bass and treble side depths? OM on the bass side, Dread on the treble side? Should one make the treble side even deeper to compensate for the sacrificed air volume on the bass side? (And how is this guitar then going to fit in a ‘standard’ case?) Is the back still slanted towards the heel like on a regular Dreadnought?

I’d also like to be nice to Mrs. Manzer and acknowledge her intellectual property. Does anyone know in what way she expects credit to be given? A letter and pictures from the luthier? Her name on the sticker inside the guitar? Or maybe I should ask her directly.

Thanks for your thoughts

[Bruce Sexauer]

One can do it any of the ways you suggest, but in most cases my take is to add to the treble side whatever I take from the bass side, so that the center line measurements remain standard.

[pickitluther]

Is the wedge guitar really that much comfortable to play ?

[srick]

I’ve got a big grin on my face from reading your query. I met Linda a couple of years ago and asked her a similar question, something silly like, “How does it feel to have a wedge named after you?”

She had a big grin on her face and was very quick to give credit to Grit Laskin for the innovation. Grit may have more info and at times he has frequented AGF. I think you should send Linda a message. She is a wonderful person and I am sure that you will get a very quick reply.

Best,

Rick

[LouieAtienza]

I made one wedge guitar a while back as an experiment (and as a "challenge" for one of MIMF's challenges.) I actually canted both sides 4 degrees, on a diagonal (so that the forearm area was the thinnest part and the cutaway was the thickest), and built a neck with an 8 degree twist (giving a total of 12 degrees of twist), and gave it fanned frets to boot. And did it in 2 weeks!

My personal experience (and that of my buddy Kenny, who I gifted it to till it started to have "problems" thought it felt pretty comfortable. Almost felt like playing a thinline acoustic. Didn't last long enough to judge the sound, but we felt it sounded pretty normal; if anything I thought the bass was nice and tight.

[bsman]

I have one of the Journey Overhead guitars that incorporates the Manzer wedge. That wasn’t really a factor in my consideration - I was simply tired of having to gate-check guitars. I have found that it IS comfortable play (in fact, an advantage is that - at least the way I play - the fingerboard is slightly canted towards me, which I find is nice) and as well, I believe it is significantly louder than expected for a guitar of that size, which I have to assume is a consequence of the wedge design, since there isn’t anything else in the construction that would explain it.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by bsman

I have one of the Journey Overhead guitars that incorporates the Manzer wedge. That wasn’t really a factor in my consideration - I was simply tired of having to gate-check guitars. I have found that it IS comfortable play (in fact, an advantage is that - at least the way I play - the fingerboard is slightly canted towards me, which I find is nice) and as well, I believe it is significantly louder than expected for a guitar of that size, which I have to assume is a consequence of the wedge design, since there isn’t anything else in the construction that would explain it.

Possibly louder in perception, since the sound hole is also slightly canted toward you as well...

[bsman]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

Possibly louder in perception, since the sound hole is also slightly canted toward you as well...

True, but my wife insists that it sounds as loud to her as my 000-15 when I’m playing.

[redir]

I've only ever made one and I simply made the bass side thinner leaving the rest of it alone. I'm not sure anyone in the room would be able to tell the difference though you could probably draft out some complicated equations to show that there is.

[iim7V7IM7]

A couple thoughts:

I have a number of guitars with varying amounts of wedge (1/4", 5/16", 3/8", 1/2" and 3/4"). All split the end block thickness between the two sides of the lower bout (+/- 1/2 the above depth differentials). Even smaller wedges make a subtle but noticeable comfort difference. That said, none of my guitars are Dreadnoughts which are wide waisted and are titanically deep at 4-7/8". On a guitar of that depth a fairly substantial wedge might be in order like 3/4" (so the lower bout depth would be 4-1/2 and 5-1/4".

[printer2]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

A couple thoughts:

I have a number of guitars with varying amounts of wedge (1/4", 5/16", 3/8", 1/2" and 3/4"). All split the end block thickness between the two sides of the lower bout (+/- 1/2 the above depth differentials). Even smaller wedges make a subtle but noticeable comfort difference. That said, none of my guitars are Dreadnoughts which are wide waisted and are titanically deep at 4-7/8". On a guitar of that depth a fairly substantial wedge might be in order like 3/4" (so the lower bout depth would be 4-1/2 and 5-1/4".

Hey Bruce, guess who needs a dread.

[iim7V7IM7]

Originally Posted by printer2

Hey Bruce, guess who needs a dread.

Nope, not in this life time...

[Alan Carruth]

Most of the folks I know who make wedge bodies add a little to the treble side and subtract as much from the bass. The end block and neck block are the usual depth, and the total air volume in the box is the same. I've used about a 1" (25mm) difference in side depth most of the time, and it's really helpful. It's about like taking 1" off the width of the lower bout.

I use a 'Smith' wedge. One of my student had an uncle who was an inventor, and held a lot of patents. It's a sort of sport in his family to try to find them all, and he has patent search software on his computer. A few years ago he did a search on guitar patents, and found one by a fellow named Smith from 1969 (iirc) on the 'wedge' body. I mentioned this on line, and eventually Linda got in touch with me about it. I sent her a .pdf copy of the patent, and she got back to say that his reasoning was the same as hers.

Sometime after she make the 'Pikasso' guitar with it's wedge body she talked about the idea with another luthier. Later on he needed to make an ergonomic guitar for a customer and 'invented' it himself, forgetting the conversation with Linda. After she got that straightened out she started pushing the 'Manzer Wedge' terminology. It was not for financial gain; so far as I know she never asked for any money. She simply wanted the credit.

As far as I'm concerned, she deserves at least some credit; after all, she had never heard of Smith when the idea came along, so it was an independent invention. But we can't ignore the patent, either. Sometimes an idea is just 'in the air', and the credit ends up going to the person who either gets to the patent office first (the Bell telephone), or the one who does the most to get the word out.

[jazzizm]

Thanks for your answers folks. I will discuss this my luthier.

[rogthefrog]

Originally Posted by pickitluther

Is the wedge guitar really that much comfortable to play ?

It is for me, yes. Especially on a big guitar.