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  #16  
Old 03-09-2017, 03:33 AM
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iim7V7IM7 iim7V7IM7 is offline
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Rob Rodgers is easy to get hold of by phone and email. He is in Nova Scotia and the workshop is in the UK. You can sbsolutely count on him delivering a flawless set on time. I have purchased 5 sets from him now.

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Originally Posted by matthewpartrick View Post
Juston and I had issues With backlash on Alessis, but segniore Alessi was more than happy to replace at no cost to me another set of hand carved tuners, which are absolutely exquisite. That said, I've never heard a bad word said on Graf ♏️or Rodgers, other than they're a little hard with which to get in contact, and. RM[URL=http://s393.photobucket.com/user/matthewpartrick/media/IMG_0072.jpg.html][IMG]http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/matthewpartrick/IMG_0072.jpg[/I㊙️🚳🚳
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  #17  
Old 03-09-2017, 03:57 AM
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Rodgers tuners are not "hand made" but CNC'd, hand assembled, polished to precision tolerances. They don't present backlash but like a Waverly are 15:1 open gear tuners, will not provide what a higher gear ratio (18:1, 21:1) closed gear Gotoh tuner will by its very design if that is important to you. I have guitars with tuners by Gilbert, Gotoh, Robson, Rodgers, Schaller, Schertler and Waverly and frankly ALL perform very well.

You are not paying for something that outperforms a Gotoh 510 or a Waverly mechanically, but are paying for a precise, low-backlash tuner made from higher quality materials, modular or customized decoration of shaft sleeves, pip styles, plates shapes/engravings/finishes and button shapes/materials. My oldest set of Rodgers are only 3 years old, but given the duty cycle of a tuner and the materials of contruction, I would expect them to last a very long time.



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Originally Posted by rogthefrog View Post
I've never used any of these tuners, so forgive the ignorance.

Can a small shop, especially one that prides itself on hand made parts, really rival the precision German or Japanese engineering you get from Gotoh and comparable manufacturers?

I'm not talking about the buttons, just the parts that really matter in terms of operating the tuners precisely over the long term.
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  #18  
Old 03-09-2017, 12:30 PM
Howard Klepper Howard Klepper is offline
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In my limited experience, response from Rodgers has been prompt, and delivery has been on schedule.

The least amount of backlash in any open tuner I have used was with Gilbert. Their design is unique. Closed tuners have backlash, too, but it is hard to feel because of the grease they are packed with.
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  #19  
Old 03-09-2017, 04:06 PM
creamburmese creamburmese is offline
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I had to look up the term backlash - obviously I am not an expert on tuner terms! However I do have a luthier built classical guitar with Alessi tuners - they seem to work fine as tuners but they drive me nuts when changing strings because I use a string winder and they aren't perfectly centered (like an off balance wheel, they wobble around). I don't know if this is because of the tuner being hand built, (abuse by a previous owner? other?), but I wouldn't be inclined to ask for them again. I don't think you'd notice it if you wound your strings up by hand ....
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Old 03-10-2017, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewpartrick View Post
Juston and I had issues With backlash on Alessis, but segniore Alessi was more than happy to replace at no cost to me another set of hand carved tuners, which are absolutely exquisite. That said, I've never heard a bad word said on Graf ♏️or Rodgers, other than they're a little hard with which to get in contact, and. RM[URL=http://s393.photobucket.com/user/matthewpartrick/media/IMG_0072.jpg.html][IMG]http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/matthewpartrick/IMG_0072.jpg[/I㊙️🚳🚳
Yep, backlash issues for me with Alessi, but once replaced they are the best tuners I own. I'm getting another guitar with Alessi and another with Rodgers.
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  #21  
Old 03-10-2017, 08:10 AM
Brad Goodman Brad Goodman is offline
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I am a fan of Rubner (German) tuners. They feel really precise, very little backlash and they will custom make them. The prices start around $100 and they go up to $300. for a "fancy" set.

They have an option for Classical and steel string slotheads where there is a bearing on both sides of the shaft which looks really nice.

What is really nice is they offer all their tuners with the different shaft options.
i.e. classical (different colors),slothead steel and paddle head steel.
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  #22  
Old 03-10-2017, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7 View Post
Rodgers tuners are not "hand made" but CNC'd, hand assembled, polished to precision tolerances.
Good information, thank you!
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  #23  
Old 03-10-2017, 09:49 AM
Burton LeGeyt Burton LeGeyt is offline
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Not all of the makers of "fancy" tuning machines make all the parts themselves- I don't know exactly who does and does not but I do know that Rodgers does. There was an excellent article in American Lutherie (issue #109, Spring 2012) that showed their setups.

They also use a different worm and worm gear tooth shape than most everyone else. It leaves more meat on the (softer) worm gear. It is shown well in Bob's great close ups of their machines. having handled sets by different makers I was most impressed with the Rodgers.

Many tuners do not use a true worm/worm gear setup and instead use a simpler helical spur gear to mate with the worm. This is not ideal but still works very well. If you look at most open gear tuners you will see wear in a ring around the center of the worm gear showing that it is making contact at that point only and not along the entire face. Again, not ideal, but will still work fine for many, many years.

It is more problematic when the worm gear is made of a very soft material, like brass. Some of the Gotoh open back machines do use brass for the worm gear and on those the wear is very obvious after only a few years. As it wears, and the worm and worm gear do not meet as perfectly, the backlash increases. Waverlies use Bronze, a better option.

Graf specifically advertises that his machines use a proper worm/worm gear. The innovations section of his site lays out some of the impressive things he has implemented into his machines. Most other makers do not mention it on their sites.
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  #24  
Old 03-10-2017, 09:58 AM
Pat Foster Pat Foster is offline
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rog,

Whether tuners are made in a small shop or a factory, they'd be made using the same machinery. In either situation, they can be done well or poorly.

Pat

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogthefrog View Post
I've never used any of these tuners, so forgive the ignorance.

Can a small shop, especially one that prides itself on hand made parts, really rival the precision German or Japanese engineering you get from Gotoh and comparable manufacturers?

I'm not talking about the buttons, just the parts that really matter in terms of operating the tuners precisely over the long term.
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  #25  
Old 03-10-2017, 11:12 AM
Jimmy Caldwell Jimmy Caldwell is offline
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Of the tuners mentioned, I only have experience with Rodgers and Robson. I found the Rodgers to be pretty much flawless in both design and function. My only issue is the weight of the tuners in comparison to the Seidel tuners that I was trying to mimic. The Seidels were a 19th century tuner and are featherlight when compared to either the Rodgers or the Robsons.

The Robsons performed well functionally, but lack the elegance of the Rodgers and were extremely heavy. Just my $0.02.

Here are the Rodgers (buttons by Burton LeGeyt).

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  #26  
Old 03-10-2017, 12:26 PM
Brad Goodman Brad Goodman is offline
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These are the Rubners on a recent build of mine.

I paid $125.


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  #27  
Old 03-10-2017, 02:36 PM
Howard Klepper Howard Klepper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burton LeGeyt View Post
Not all of the makers of "fancy" tuning machines make all the parts themselves- I don't know exactly who does and does not but I do know that Rodgers does. There was an excellent article in American Lutherie (issue #109, Spring 2012) that showed their setups.

They also use a different worm and worm gear tooth shape than most everyone else. It leaves more meat on the (softer) worm gear. It is shown well in Bob's great close ups of their machines. having handled sets by different makers I was most impressed with the Rodgers.

Many tuners do not use a true worm/worm gear setup and instead use a simpler helical spur gear to mate with the worm. This is not ideal but still works very well. If you look at most open gear tuners you will see wear in a ring around the center of the worm gear showing that it is making contact at that point only and not along the entire face. Again, not ideal, but will still work fine for many, many years.

It is more problematic when the worm gear is made of a very soft material, like brass. Some of the Gotoh open back machines do use brass for the worm gear and on those the wear is very obvious after only a few years. As it wears, and the worm and worm gear do not meet as perfectly, the backlash increases. Waverlies use Bronze, a better option.

Graf specifically advertises that his machines use a proper worm/worm gear. The innovations section of his site lays out some of the impressive things he has implemented into his machines. Most other makers do not mention it on their sites.
Burton, I have looked at a lot of sources, and not one of them says that a non-enveloping worm gear is not a "true" or "proper" worm gear. Which is not to say that an enveloping gear does not have advantages.

While the machining for an enveloping gear is more sophisticated, is it significantly more expensive? I would think that with CNC machinery, once you have programmed, it is no more costly to machine an enveloping gear. But if that is right, why would no manufacturer other than Graf make an enveloping gear? The two possibilities seem to be that either it is significantly more expensive; or that it has no significant advantage in this application. Which do you think it is?

Re terminology, some sources refer to the whole worm and wheel unit as a "worm gear," while others call the wheel a "worm gear" (as you did above) and the other part a "worm" or "screw." I think it is more clear to use "worm wheel" and "worm screw" when discussing the two parts.
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  #28  
Old 03-10-2017, 03:12 PM
Itzkinguitars Itzkinguitars is offline
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Another option are Perona machines. They're a a very high quality tuner made in Taiwan that I first came across on a guitar built by my teacher, Stephen Hill. The classical set on that guitar worked incredibly precisely with minimal backlash and a really lovely design. Despite what some might assume due to the country of origin, the quality (and price...) are exquisite. Check out these slot head steel string tuners they make, they also make a solid head version

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  #29  
Old 03-10-2017, 04:11 PM
Burton LeGeyt Burton LeGeyt is offline
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Howard,

Sure- I used the term "true" and instead should have used "enveloping". I also see that I used helical incorrectly- I meant to say that many open back machines use a spur gear with the tooth cut at an angle rather than a true helical gear. This is what leads to the the point rather than line contact issue. I could be wrong (those things are small!) but I don't think so.

I don't know why others don't advertise the use of an enveloping worm gear. I'm also not sure that other makers don't, in fact, use them. I've never taken a sealed Gotoh apart, or seen a Robson up close. From seeing one picture of Rodgers setup I am assuming they are using a helical gear but I don't know that for sure either.

I'm also not an expert in this stuff! Very interested in it, but no proper training and, so, big gaps in my knowledge.

As for others advertising that feature (or not) I would guess it is because most guitarmakers and players wouldn't know the difference. Graf's site has much more technical data than the other makers' sites, which seem to cater primarily to (classical mostly) guitarists.

In my own thinking of how to make the sets it would be much more complicated for me to make the enveloping gear. I would want to hob it and I would expect the fit between the enveloping worm gear and the worm would need to be much more exact than the fit between a worm and angled spur gear. Making/sourcing the hob and accounting for wear against the produced worms would be critical as well.

I did spend some time a while back looking for stock sets in the sizes needed and did not have much luck. I also inquired to a few places to make me custom hobs and had no luck there either- I imagine it is not worth their time to make one or two here and there. I didn't conduct an exhaustive search, but enough to know it wasn't going to be simple.

And, as you mentioned, does it matter in this application? Since most of us agree that Waverly machines work well I would say not really. I would expect a properly fit enveloping gear to last longer (or at least take longer to develop backlash) and possibly feel smoother at the upper end of the string tension but otherwise be very similar in use to the simpler gear set which most of us are very satisfied with.

I wasn't trying to insinuate it was necessary- rather I was trying to illustrate that the type of gear used is another way to differentiate between the boutique tuning machine makers.
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  #30  
Old 03-10-2017, 04:37 PM
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Ask and ye shall receive... Here is a shot of the gears on a Robson tuner....




Quote:
Originally Posted by Burton LeGeyt View Post
Howard,

Sure- I used the term "true" and instead should have used "enveloping". I also see that I used helical incorrectly- I meant to say that many open back machines use a spur gear with the tooth cut at an angle rather than a true helical gear. This is what leads to the the point rather than line contact issue. I could be wrong (those things are small!) but I don't think so.

I don't know why others don't advertise the use of an enveloping worm gear. I'm also not sure that other makers don't, in fact, use them. I've never taken a sealed Gotoh apart, or seen a Robson up close. From seeing one picture of Rodgers setup I am assuming they are using a helical gear but I don't know that for sure either.

I'm also not an expert in this stuff! Very interested in it, but no proper training and, so, big gaps in my knowledge.

As for others advertising that feature (or not) I would guess it is because most guitarmakers and players wouldn't know the difference. Graf's site has much more technical data than the other makers' sites, which seem to cater primarily to (classical mostly) guitarists.

In my own thinking of how to make the sets it would be much more complicated for me to make the enveloping gear. I would want to hob it and I would expect the fit between the enveloping worm gear and the worm would need to be much more exact than the fit between a worm and angled spur gear. Making/sourcing the hob and accounting for wear against the produced worms would be critical as well.

I did spend some time a while back looking for stock sets in the sizes needed and did not have much luck. I also inquired to a few places to make me custom hobs and had no luck there either- I imagine it is not worth their time to make one or two here and there. I didn't conduct an exhaustive search, but enough to know it wasn't going to be simple.

And, as you mentioned, does it matter in this application? Since most of us agree that Waverly machines work well I would say not really. I would expect a properly fit enveloping gear to last longer (or at least take longer to develop backlash) and possibly feel smoother at the upper end of the string tension but otherwise be very similar in use to the simpler gear set which most of us are very satisfied with.

I wasn't trying to insinuate it was necessary- rather I was trying to illustrate that the type of gear used is another way to differentiate between the boutique tuning machine makers.
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