Old plywood vs new??

[laocmo]

Back in the 50s 60s 70s cheap plywood guitars had that characteristic cheap plywood sound. Dead, no ring, no sustain, etc. Today plywood guitars from China Have unbelievably good sound. Sometimes a good playing nice sounding dreadnought can be found in the $100 range. Is plywood still plywood? How have they changed it to sound so good? I've heard all the Rogue guitars are made of laminated white wood. They sound way better than their price would indicate. Some call wood from the Tulip tree white wood. I never heard of a Tulip tree. Anyone know the resonate characteristics for various woods?

[ASC67]

There is a big difference between plywood and good laminated tone wood.

[Jim Comeaux]

The term “plywood” is sometimes used as a derogatory term. On the other hand the term “laminated tone wood” is, to me, just a bit pretentious. Some of the new iofferings are mostly Not even wood at all. I refer to Martin’s HPL. As far as I know, it is made of some kind of plastic mixed with some kind of wood or wood product material. The manufacturer is holding the exact formula as a pretty closely guarded secret, sort of like the recipe for KFC or Coca Cola. So, yes old plywood is not the same as modern day plywood and in some cases modern plywood isn’t plywood.

[RP]

I'd guess that they're putting more emphasis on the quality and structure of the guitar's top and bracing...

[Gdjjr]

I had one of the cheap Jim Dandy's for a few days- took it back. It sounded like plywood.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by ASC67

There is a big difference between plywood and good laminated tone wood.

THIS.

You can observe the three distinct layers in some of Taylor's laminated offerings. Part of the process in some of their guitar lines leaves the outer edges of the body unbound, and the lamination layers actually create their own unique look.

"Plywood" (other than premium varieties such as Baltic Birch...) is generally constructed of inferior layers covered by a more attractive outer veneer, sometimes as little as 1/48" in thickness.

Taylor uses 3 more or less equal thicknesses of solid wood, and this permits them to do creative techniques such as forming arched braceless backs which contribute to the sound they produce.

The resonance of the individual woods used are of little importance when referencing modern laminated construction. The HOW its made is more important than the materials used.

"Plywood" can be a bad thing or a "force for good" in the world.

[catndahats]

it's still plies...layers, but there are different grades. My cheapo '60-'70's Epiphone is laminate/ply and has always sounded good for example.

Modern construction may also be part of the sound improvements. Reminds me of a special that Taylor made back around 2000, called the Pallet Guitar. The point was that with good design and build almost any wood can sound good.

[Shishigashira]

Originally Posted by laocmo

Back in the 50s 60s 70s cheap plywood guitars had that characteristic cheap plywood sound. Dead, no ring, no sustain, etc. Today plywood guitars from China Have unbelievably good sound. Sometimes a good playing nice sounding dreadnought can be found in the $100 range. Is plywood still plywood? How have they changed it to sound so good? I've heard all the Rogue guitars are made of laminated white wood. They sound way better than their price would indicate. Some call wood from the Tulip tree white wood. I never heard of a Tulip tree. Anyone know the resonate characteristics for various woods?

I have not tried laminated guitars from the 50s, 60s or 70s. But I've tried the new Yamahas (FS and FG) and they are phenomenal guitars. I have an FS830 that sounds terrific. It honestly surprises me every time I play it because I know how much I paid for it. I read that Yamaha uses a top and bottom layer of tonewood with a layer of poplar in between.

Those old biases may not be as relevant any longer. Still laminate (or plywood) is a generic term that can be many different things. Some of the top luthiers use laminate back and sides or even laminate tops and produce amazing guitars.

By the way, Tulip tree is poplar or the Tulip poplar and it does indeed produce very white looking wood. They also put out beautiful tulip like flowers in the spring, hence the name.

[stormin1155]

Originally Posted by laocmo

Back in the 50s 60s 70s cheap plywood guitars had that characteristic cheap plywood sound. Dead, no ring, no sustain, etc. Today plywood guitars from China Have unbelievably good sound. Sometimes a good playing nice sounding dreadnought can be found in the $100 range. Is plywood still plywood? How have they changed it to sound so good? I've heard all the Rogue guitars are made of laminated white wood. They sound way better than their price would indicate. Some call wood from the Tulip tree white wood. I never heard of a Tulip tree. Anyone know the resonate characteristics for various woods?

A lot of owners of Asian-built laminate guitars from the '60s and '70s would disagree with you. Notably MIJ Yamahas, Alvarez, and others coming out of the Matsumoku factory. I still have my all laminate '73 Yamaki and several early '70s Taiwan built Yamahas that give my more expensive solid wood guitars a run for the money.

[FrankHudson]

As some are already answering, a guitar's sound is more than the woods or materials used for the body. We've become accustomed to the idea that solid woods sound "better" and that may well be a tendency for certain kinds of results (thus our beliefs about solid wood).

It's not improbable that some makers or those contracting with those factories are specifying better designs and materials that work well together. I have two old, inexpensive, "plywood" top, back, and sides guitars from the 70s. My old Cortez 12-string doesn't sound terrible as an acoustic, but it's not as resonate and pleasing as my Seagull 12-string with a solid cedar top or my Guild JF30-12 with an arched, braceless, laminated maple back and solid top and sides. Even my old and cheaper Checkmate nylon string (my first guitar) sounded surprisingly OK to me when I took it out of storage a few years ago and recorded a piece with it. That could be due to me not being as attuned to desirable nylon string sound.

Because this is an enthusiast's forum with mutually ratcheting-up expectations, it can hard to appreciate sometimes that one can make satisfying music with an inexpensive all-laminated instrument. I know I enjoyed the time when all I had was those two laminated 70's guitars.

[Mark Stone]

There are some very, very resonant high-quality laminated guitars. Yahama, Kazuo Yairi, and Taylor are fine examples. Yairi especially - they perfected a two-layer parallel grain laminate, some with arched backs, that would compare to many of its solid-wood counterparts. My laminated Taylor 110e is a powerhouse, with its "layered" (Taylor's terminology) B&S, arched and with no bracing. Epiphones, when they were made at the Samick factory, were also very good - especially their jumbos (EJ-200).

I think we cheat ourselves if we judge instruments based solely on whether they have laminated backs and sides. I would add that my Yairi is from the 70s.

[bufflehead]

In plywood, a construction material, the grain in the laminates of each layer run perpendicular to the next. This lends the material greater strength, especially sheer strength.

In guitar laminates the grain of each layer runs in the same direction, more closely duplicating the structure of solid wood.

[Mark Stone]

Originally Posted by Jim Comeaux

The term “plywood” is sometimes used as a derogatory term. On the other hand the term “laminated tone wood” is, to me, just a bit pretentious. Some of the new things offerings are mostly Not even wood at all. I refer to Martin’s HPL. As far as I know, it is made of some kind of plastic mixed with some kind of wood or wood product material. The manufacturer is holding the exact formula as a pretty closely guarded secret, sort of like the recipe for KFC or Coca Cola. So, yes old plywood is not the same as modern day plywood and in some cases modern plywood isn’t plywood.

Duplicate post?

[merlin666]

Is it possible that the player who compares the guitars has become more skilled in making guitars sound good? I think plywood guitars in the 70s such as Takamine, Yamaha, Yairi sounded fine and that may be one of the reasons that they are still around. I still own my very first guitar which was affordable plywood Suzuki for 15 year old kid, and while it's not nearly as enjoyable as my newer high end guitars it is at least as good as any Eastman that would set you back around $700. And it has not opened up after 1000s of hours of hard play.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by bufflehead

In plywood, a construction material, the grain in the laminates of each layer run perpendicular to the next. This lends the material greater strength, especially sheer strength.

In guitar laminates the grain of each layer runs in the same direction, more closely duplicating the structure of solid wood.

That's not strictly the case. Some makers do use traditional alternating layer plywood for guitar making. Godin for example. There excess plywood production goes to the furniture industry and motor industry for truck outfitting.

I would expect that the Yamaha FG/FS series guitars orientate the meranti core they use in a different plane to the nato, mahogany, rosewood or maple outer veneers.

And Beard uses Finnish birch plywood for the backs and sides of their Deco Phonic guitars. This is definitely a positive tonal choice over using a solid wood, not due to costs.