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Old 09-14-2019, 06:01 PM
dtpolk dtpolk is offline
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Default Spreading fingers for HARD chords.

This is similar to a question asked here earlier today by funkapus. I asked this a week ago as well but got no real usable answer. I'm asking again to benefit both funkapus and myself. I have a very similar problem with poor spreading between my index and other fingers.

A good song example is "Those who wait" by Tommy Emmanuel. In the first three chords, the third chord is a sort of G with index on 4th string 2nd fret, 2nd finger on 3rd string 3rd fret, ring finger on 5th string 5th fret and pinky on 6th string 5th fret. The tuning is drop D.

I have average size hands with large palms but short fingers. Try as I might, I can't QUITE make that stretch!! The stretch itself is between the 2nd and ring fingers.

I see others, some with fingers even shorter the mine do this. HOW??
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Old 09-14-2019, 06:48 PM
Orion252 Orion252 is offline
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[

Dtpolk,

Someone posted this here a while back and it helped me with wide chords. He talks about your hand and thumb position behind the neck. Maybe it will help you as well.

Last edited by TomB'sox; 09-14-2019 at 07:55 PM. Reason: Imbeded video
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Old 09-14-2019, 07:48 PM
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rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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Tommy has large hands. No amount of practicing is going to allow small hands to reach the fingering of those chords the way he does.
You could substitute a III to IV barre with the same notes or also the same notes with a hammer-on on the third string.
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Last edited by rick-slo; 09-14-2019 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:11 PM
Digits_Only Digits_Only is offline
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Originally Posted by dtpolk View Post
index on 4th string 2nd fret, 2nd finger on 3rd string 3rd fret, ring finger on 5th string 5th fret and pinky on 6th string 5th fret.
First off, I'd swap the ring and pinky fingerings.

If that is too much for you, practice the fingering up higher on the neck where the frets are closer together. Find somewhere you can hit that chord and go back and forth with the preceding chord (also played up the neck in the same positional relationship). When this becomes natural, move down a fret and practice there until it feels natural. Rinse repeat. Over time your brain will get trained to position the fingers wider and wider apart.

It may take months or more to get there: be patient and practice it every day for 10 minutes or so. I do this with weird jazz chords all the time. In fact I'm always working on some new chord torture courtesy of Ted Greene or other guitar sadist.

Last edited by Digits_Only; 09-15-2019 at 05:53 AM.
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Old 09-15-2019, 04:31 AM
Gitfiddlemann Gitfiddlemann is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digits_Only View Post
First off, I'd swap the ring and pinky fingerings.

Is this a passing chord because it's pretty dissonant...

If that is too much for you, practice the fingering up higher on the neck where the frets are closer together. Find somewhere you can hit that chord and go back and forth with the preceding chord (also played up the neck in the same positional relationship). When this becomes natural, move down a fret and practice there until it feels natural. Rinse repeat. Over time your brain will get trained to position the fingers wider and wider apart.

It may take months or more to get there: be patient and practice it every day for 10 minutes or so. I do this with weird jazz chords all the time. In fact I'm always working on some new chord torture courtesy of Ted Greene or other guitar sadist.
+1 for this advice.
When I tried the original fingering suggested I also instinctively switched ring and pinky positions. Placing the pinky on the 6th string (even if TE does that) is much more awkward.
All in all though, I find the following alternative position easier to grab on the fly:
2nd finger on 6th string 5th fret. (G)
Pinky on the 5th string 7th fret (E)
Open 4th string (D)
Index on the 3rd fret, third string (Bb or A#)
Don't know if it fits in the context of the song though, so might or might not work.
These passing type chords are indeed challenging, but as D_O says, you have to just spend some quiet time in your practice to work them. It all comes eventually. These stretches are possible for all hands, but granted, larger ones may help in this particular case. It's doable for all though.
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Old 09-15-2019, 05:04 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtpolk View Post
This is similar to a question asked here earlier today by funkapus. I asked this a week ago as well but got no real usable answer. I'm asking again to benefit both funkapus and myself. I have a very similar problem with poor spreading between my index and other fingers.

A good song example is "Those who wait" by Tommy Emmanuel. In the first three chords, the third chord is a sort of G with index on 4th string 2nd fret, 2nd finger on 3rd string 3rd fret, ring finger on 5th string 5th fret and pinky on 6th string 5th fret.
I suspect ring and pinky need to go the other way.
In fact - as you can see from video - his chord is played like this:

e - x
B - 3 = middle
G - 2 = index
D - 5 = pinky
A - x
D - 5 = ring

Still a bit stretchy, obviously - and before that chord he uses his thumb on 6th string fret 3 (while holding the rest of the shape), which doesn't make it any easier.

(chord in question at 0:12, 0:17 and 0:22.)

In some chords later in the song he does use pinky on 6th string fret 5, but not with ring on 5th string. (eg 0:31)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtpolk View Post
I see others, some with fingers even shorter the mine do this. HOW??
Practice!
Obviously, unusually short fingers could not manage this, but all hands can be trained through practice to enable fingers to stretch further apart.

Of course, it's not fair that Tommy is a big guy and seems to have slightly larger hands than average... But he has also - duh - done a lot of practising!

FWIW, I can play the chord myself but it does feel like a stretch. (I'd say my fingers are thinner than average but of normal length.) The issue for me is not the stretch between index and ring, but between middle and ring. I can easily get index and ring (and pinky) in position as above, but my middle then hovers above 4th fret. I have to rotate my hand back towards the nut, fingers pointing more towards the bridge (about 45 degrees to strings and frets), to get the middle comfortably back on 3rd fret. The neck is then in the palm (classical guitar teachers look away now... ) and the thumb comes over quite naturally.
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Last edited by JonPR; 09-15-2019 at 05:17 AM.
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Old 09-15-2019, 05:19 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digits_Only View Post
First off, I'd swap the ring and pinky fingerings.
Yes!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digits_Only View Post
Is this a passing chord because it's pretty dissonant...
Not at all, it's Gsus2. G-x-G-A-D-x (see video).
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Old 09-15-2019, 05:21 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by Orion252 View Post
[

Dtpolk,

Someone posted this here a while back and it helped me with wide chords. He talks about your hand and thumb position behind the neck. Maybe it will help you as well.
Great advice!
Not too helpful for this chord, unfortunately, which needs thumb over when approaching it.
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Old 09-15-2019, 06:00 AM
Digits_Only Digits_Only is offline
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Not at all, it's Gsus2. G-x-G-A-D-x (see video).
I'm wasn't referring to a video, I was referring to the chord OP had spec'ed out which is G-D-E-B♭. It's actually Gm6 which is not dissonant at all to my ear. I must have been also inadvertently playing the open B natural which makes it Gmaj/min6 which definitely is dissonant. Whew, glad we got that straightened out, this is the internet after all...

Last edited by Digits_Only; 09-15-2019 at 06:07 AM.
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Old 09-15-2019, 08:38 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digits_Only View Post
I'm wasn't referring to a video, I was referring to the chord OP had spec'ed out which is G-D-E-B♭. It's actually Gm6 which is not dissonant at all to my ear. I must have been also inadvertently playing the open B natural which makes it Gmaj/min6 which definitely is dissonant. Whew, glad we got that straightened out, this is the internet after all...
I realised you were just replying to the OP, but I hadn't spotted he got the B♭ wrong as well.
As you say, glad we got it straightened out between us...
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Old 09-15-2019, 09:11 AM
Gitfiddlemann Gitfiddlemann is offline
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Quote:
Quote:
Not at all, it's Gsus2. G-x-G-A-D-x (see video)
Well, that's better. The OP should now be happier at at least getting the right chord in the tune!
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Old 09-15-2019, 09:35 AM
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The stretch chord is played on his 25.5" scale length Maton.

He does that with room to spare. I can't do that reliably and cleanly and would not try to. The main thing for the sound here is the ringing notes, particularly the D note on the second string.

To leave that D note fretted the whole time for this and the prior two chord positions I would leave the ring finger on that D note and hammer on the open third string at the second fret for the G and A notes. Other strings fretted accordingly. Still a stretch but not quite as much of one.

You could also do a third fret barre and hammer on the fourth string (fifth fret to seventh with the pinky) but it does not sound as flowing.

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Old 09-15-2019, 12:35 PM
dtpolk dtpolk is offline
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Yea, I listed the chord wrong perhaps, but I know what it is. I've tried several inversions (there are hardly any) but to me they just don't sound right. It's weird how some people play this. Usually, even with Tommy, you can easily see the spread between the middle and ring fingers, but some players you see no spread at all. Odd!

I guess I'm looking for exercises to enhance that particular spread.

Thanks all.
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Old 09-15-2019, 01:05 PM
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rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtpolk View Post
Yea, I listed the chord wrong perhaps, but I know what it is. I've tried several inversions (there are hardly any) but to me they just don't sound right. It's weird how some people play this. Usually, even with Tommy, you can easily see the spread between the middle and ring fingers, but some players you see no spread at all. Odd!

I guess I'm looking for exercises to enhance that particular spread.

Thanks all.

Below is the alternate that I find doable and rings out well:

-----------------------------------------------------
----------------------3------------------------3-----
--------0---(h)--2-----------0-- (h) ---2-----------
------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
---3---------------------5---------------------------
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Old 09-16-2019, 05:25 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtpolk View Post
Yea, I listed the chord wrong perhaps, but I know what it is. I've tried several inversions (there are hardly any) but to me they just don't sound right. It's weird how some people play this. Usually, even with Tommy, you can easily see the spread between the middle and ring fingers, but some players you see no spread at all. Odd!
Well that is odd! Do you have images or videos of those players that we can see?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtpolk View Post
I guess I'm looking for exercises to enhance that particular spread.
Basically anything that stretches those fingers. Just keeping playing (anything) will increase your general flexibilty.
I guess for that particular stretch, I'd suggest fretting notes two frets apart wherever you can - starting as high on the fretboard as you need to. E.g., middle on fret 12, ring on fret 14, and walking your way across the neck. It's not a great sounding scale pattern, unfortunately!
Do that several times, and gradually work your way down the neck. You will need to have your fingers near parallel to the strings, but that's kind of how the stretch works: ring fairly straight, middle curling back towards the palm.

Meanwhile, one possible solution (if rick's solution doesn't work for you and you want to maintain the original chord voicing): play with capo on 1 or 2! So the frets are closer. I'm not sure how high you need to go for other parts of the tune, but that's the only limit on how high you can put the capo. You then count all the tab from capo=0 of course.
You'll be in a higher key, so you won't be able to play along with the original, but you could tune down to DADBGE with the capo on.
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