Acoustic amp choice - Ultrasound, Fishman, AER?

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by rstl99

Thanks for additional thoughts re: Ultrasound vs Fishman.

As "buzzard" indicated, engineering issues associated with producing something with good features and decent sound at that price range can't be gotten around. Both those amp families seem to do a reasonably good job of it, with some compromises and tradeoffs. Most people have indicated impressions of Ultrasound to be more "rounded/warmer" and Fishman "sharper/sterile". Since one of the major reasons for my acquiring an acoustic amp is to be able to practice/play my jazz archtop, I may tend to lean on the Ultrasound "warmer" sound. Either one would be good for me, no doubt. Too bad I can't A/B test them with my guitars and ears, but such is life.

Speaking of Ultrasound, the shop that sells them here is quite pricey (!). I know I'm in Canada but selling the DS4 at $575 cdn when I've seen it as low as $389 us online gives me some frustration. Maybe I'll go try it out at the store, and if I like it, order one in from the US and hope the shipping/taxes/customs charges don't negate the savings This shop also has a couple of used Ultrasounds, a Pro250 and a CP100. Would these offer head-room or other advantages over the DS4? (albeit for higher cost and more weight...)

Someone else offered to sell me a Trace Elliott TA70CR from the 80's (?) at a reasonable price, but I gather this is a rather heavy amp and has probably been superceded by better gear with more features, so not worth serious consideration? (weight IS an issue for me, lugging an amp to friends' houses for jams etc.)

I think the DS-4 is a terrific little amp., but if the used Pro250 brings its price down to something in the vincinity of the new DS-4, I would seriously consider it, IF the following are true:

You feel you might need the extra power to play in a loud band.

You feel you might at some point play venues where something like a small solo PA would a useful and convenient thing to have.

You don't mind an amp that weighs a little under 40 lbs.

I say this because the Pro offers some serious advantages over the DS-4, most important being its triamped set up. I think it's a really, really fine sounding amp. And there are a few other advantages in terms of connectivity, EQ, and effects. The CP100, on the other hand offers little beyond more watts, and I think its speaker/amp set up doesn't sound quite as good as the DS-4's, although perhaps it might beat the smaller amp at really loud volumes.

The Pro250 was on my short list of options when I was looking to upgrade from my DS-4. It lost out to a Genz Benz ProLT, which I thought sounded even better for my purposes. For me it was a choice between the full-range clarity of the trimped Pro250 and the extra force of the ProLT's 12" speaker. I also liked the particular timber of the Genz Benz with my voice and with my particular guitar and pickup and its more flexible EQ section. But mostly it was the timber and the forcefulness from the larger speaker.

But you should give them all a try if you can, your ears and pocketbook being yours, of course, and not mine!

Happy shopping!

Louis

[briggleman]

I had made a post earlier this year before I had listened to a DS4 so I thought I would reiterate it again just for the OP's benefit. It does come from my engineering point of view.

OK, not even comparing sound quality or tonal differences or built in effects, these are the differences that most concerned me when I compared the two.

Wattage: Artist - 120 watts

DS4 - 50 watts
************************************************

EQ: Artist - Full mid range control along with Bass and Treble

DS4- A one setting Shape button with Bass and Treble.
************************************************** ********

Inter-connectivity: Artist - individual channel PRE balanced outs with individual channel effects send and receive. A combined channel POST balanced out --- 3 total!!

DS4 - Just a single combined POST balanced out with combined effects send and receive.
************************************************** *******
Other Items:Artist has tuner out jack along with a mute switch which is foot switch controllable. Also better control of input signals with a gain control for each channel. 10db pad switch for the really hot signals.

Added 12/27/2011 ---> Forgot about the ability to control the tweeter. The Loudbox 100 and Artist have an individual control for the tweeter output to soften or clarify the higher frequencies. This was added to the Loudbox series just in the last few years, so if you heard one before this feature, it might be time to audition again.

DS4 does not have any of these features!

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

About a week and a half ago, I listened and then played through a DS4. It is a great amp. The sound was warm and it really did make my guitar sound good. I then cranked it a little and that is when I found I did not like the sound that the DS4 produced. I tend to use muddy too much so forget I said that, I just did not think it was as defined at louder listening levels. It definitely does not have the headroom of the Loudbox 100 but do not discount it just because of that. Like I said, it did sound good.

However, I think the Loudbox offers more for the money and is superior in its engineering and is very robust. In my opinion and for my ears it sounds better with my Taylor than the DS4 or the CP100 which is the only other Ultrasound I have got to play through. The Fishman Artist is a little more powerful than the Fishman Loudbox 100 but not as bomb proof. Like I said before, you are going to be happy with the DS4 or Artist. Sounds like the DS4 may be a better choice just because you have a local shop to take care of you. Service is one area where I really rate a product and from everything I have heard, Ultrasound really steps up to the plate.

[David Youngman]

I always contemplate whether I should add an opinion to the already many opinions but decided to share my experience with acoustic amps.

I perform regularly - mostly steel string fingerstyle but I also do Jazz and classical as well.

I played a Roland AC-60 for 5 years or so and really liked it for the most part but wanted something with a little more bite or attack. Roland was a little muddy for me. I also wanted a little more range out of it. It has the dual 6.5" speakers so I was looking for a larger sub and really wanted a tweeter. I was also maxing out the volume and needed a little more power.

Elderly Instruments in Lansing had a great selection of amps to test. I tried Ultrasound, Genz Benz, AER, Marshall, Fishman and maybe 1 or two other brands. I'm not sure if I tested the same models you are looking at but in my comparison the Fishman Loudbox 100 seemed the clearest with a good wide frequency range having the 8" woofer and the tweeter. Also, not sure if you knew this but you can dial the tweeter gain on the back of the amp which allows for greater flexibility in tonal response (brighter to mellow sound). Of course the Fishman also has a lot of flexibility with ins, outs, eq, etc.

I remember all of the Ultrasound amps not being as clear tonally as the Fishman. Notes seemed to blend together a little more. Also as I look at the DS4 online it doesn't give you as many control options to shape your sound.

I know AER is very well respected and a lot of great guitarists use their amps but for me it was just a little too mellow. I can get a mellow sound with my Fishman Loudbox 100 by bringing down the tweeter and adjusting the EQ. I remember trying to like the AER because I knew a lot of guys use them but I was hoping for a little brighter sound out of it.

So because of its flexibility, the Fishman won me over. It allows me to dial in a mellow jazz tone, a medium natural sound for Classical, and I can add some more attack when i'm doing more aggressive fingerstyle playing. It can also accept a stereo cable and split the signal between the two channels to control them separately. It has feedback control, reverb, and a number of other great options. It really is quite an amazing amplifier.

One final note about acoustic amps that I remember being very frustrated with is hiss. I understand how to get a gain balance between pickup, gain, and master. There were a lot of amps that just had too much hiss. The Roland I had was quite clear, the Fishman I have is really good, I believe the AER was also very good, but if I'm remembering correctly I thought the Ultrasounds had more hiss that was hard to get a good gain balance with.

Let us know what you decide on.

All the best,
David

[DrDavid]

This is a great thread.

Lots of information, as well as personal usage reports and perspectives.

I'll just add a couple of quick thoughts from my own perspective.

I have both an Ultrasound DS4 and a Genz Benz 150 LT. Both are great sounding amps, for voice as well as guitar.

I have not personally played through a Loudbox. But a friend uses one in his band, and I have heard it live numerous times. It sounds great also. And I think the Fishman shares several of the advantages I mention below for the Genz Benz.

The Ultrasound is a little lighter and more compact than the Genz Benz. Aside from that advantage, I would rate the GB slightly higher than the Ultrasound overall, for several reasons:

1. Tonally, I find the Genz Benz a bit "richer" on the low end, probably due to its 12 inch speaker. I do EQ earlier in the signal chain, which eliminates the GB's advantage, and the Fishman's, in terms of on-board tone shaping. But you might want to keep in mind that the Ultrasound is not as flexible in this regard as either the GB or Fishman.

2. Big difference in connection options, as others have already mentioned. GB and Fishman have individual channel outs, the Ultrasound has a summed out.

3. One thing that bugs me about the Ultrasound is that the channel signal controls do not alter gain. Instead, they are truly volume controls. (Gain is fixed at a preset level.) While this works well in setting up a mix between channel one and channel two, it means that you need to attend somewhat more carefully to gain structure earlier in the signal chain. The GB's channel controls, on the other hand, (and I think the Fishman's as well), affect gain, which gives you more flexibility in my experience over clipping and headroom. Don't get me wrong, the Ultrasound approach works well most of the time, but it is possible, if you aren't careful, to feed it a too-hot signal which distorts the channels without the ability to reduce gain on-board.

Overall, I think you'd be happy with any of the amps you're primarily considering. (I would encourage you to add Genz Benz as a potential choice to the Fishman and Ultrasound.)

It's great to have such excellent choices at a pretty reasonable price point, huh?

Hope that helps.

..

[buzzardwhiskey]

You might consider another route...

The Yamaha MSR250 has 3 inputs: mic, 1/4" and RCA with EQ and volume controls. Add a little mixer such as the Soundcraft 124fx/Behringer 1202fx and you've got amazing power, clarity and flexibility.

[doublescale1]

What Buzzardwhiskey said - many acoustic players are opting to get a powered monitor speaker and just add a little mixer (a passive, non-powered mixer with 4 to 6 inputs can be had new for about $100). With the little mixer you can plug in your guitar and a mic, set the levels and your on. There are several powered speakers to choose from, Mackie, JBL, Yamaha, and on. Since they are full freq monitors they will do your guitar sound well and of course take care of your vocals. It's something to look into when your spending time in the music store.

[rstl99]

Hi all, well I bought an amp!! And wouldn't you know it, it's none of the ones that I had been considering before today or discussed on this thread.

Firstly, there was not a DS4 anywhere in town for me to try out. And no Fishman model I had my eye on (Loudbox Artist).

I spoke with someone at a music shop I have frequented for years, and her advice was to find an acoustic amp that sounded the best with my jazz archtop semi-acoustic, because that would be the most difficult to get a good sound from an acoustic guitar amp. She recommended the amp I eventually bought, but didn't have one in stock. It's sold in Canada/US by Godin guitars.

I found another local supplier across the river that sold it, so went to look at it, with archtop in hand. Wasn't I surprised but to see right beside it the little AER Alpha 40w that I had considered initially, and its "big" brother the AC60 (60w). So I was able to A/B test those two, and the result was quite noticeable and made my decision easy. The one I bought sounded so much richer, has such a great tone control. My archtop sounded fantastic on it. I then played a mid-line store acoustic guitar and the difference was quite noticeable too. THe amp I bought has so much more functionality and versatility than the AER's, which also made the decision easy.

Ok, so you're probably wondering what I bought?? It's the SR Technologies Jam 100 (made in Italy). They also had its bigger brother Jam 150 (150 vs 100 watt) but it was quite a bit pricier, and I was comfortable with the price on the Jam 100 (about $730, whereas the AER Alpha was over $800). Here's a link with the picture and specs (mine has the woodgrain finish and I bought the padded gig bag for it):

http://www.sr-amps.com/specs.html

This youtube video gives a good overview of the 150 model:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA3QO...eature=related

Anyway, I'll be fooling around with it and getting familiar with its controls and sound over the next few days. It sounded great in the store and I'm sure will sound even better at home. I'm going to a jam with a friend tomorrow so will be able to compare mine to his Traynor Acoustic Master Custom amp.

Thanks to all for the posts, ideas, advice, experience. I couldn't have made this decision without having been so well informed about the right features to look for, etc.

As someone said, "It's great to have such excellent choices at a pretty reasonable price point"!!

Cheers to all. Time to make some nice music!!!

[BuleriaChk]

The SR Jam 150 compared very favorably with my Fishman SoloAmp and LR Baggs A-ref; I'm sure its little brother is excellent as well. It was a major effort of will for me not to purchase the Jam 150........... but I already have two of the best amps in the business, and I am not a music store or reseller.

But it was very close indeed....

[David Youngman]

Looks like a great amp. Have fun with it!

[rstl99]

Well, it's only been a couple of days but so far I'm very pleased with my SRT Jam 100. Took it to a house jam yesterday (the size and weight were very helpful!), plugged my Lowden into it (LR Baggs i-beam undersaddle pickup) and it sounded very nice. We were recording with mics into a multi-track digital recorder and monitoring with headphones (2 guitarists, one bass guitarist, harp player, 2 male and 1 female singers). I was the only one with an amp (my friend didn't feel like lugging his 35lb Traynor), so directed the SRT to the far corner of the basement and just used the balanced out to patch into the recorder. Being able to eq my sound and add some reverb in the SRT gave my Lowden a great sound. Plus having it playing in the room added a good warm ambiance.

I know this is not like a performance setting, but it made me realize I'll get good use and enjoyment out of this little amp, for solo playing/practice, and jam situations like this one. If I should ever use it in performance, I figure I'll just plug it into a PA for added volume (they are not very loud).

From what I have been reading online, SR Technologies (Italy) partnered with Schertler on this, because my amp looks a LOT like a Schertler (cabinet, speakers, control pots, etc.). Since I've read good things about Schertler, that makes me even more confident about my purchase. Plus I also own a Dupont Selmer-type guitar and try my hand at gypsy jazz (manouche) from time to time, and I hear that manouche players frequently use a Schertler. So sounds like this little amp has great versatility and is well matched to some of my guitars. Will be fun to experiment with it over the next few months.

[HighAndDry]

How about the loudbox performer? anyone use that? It has 130 watts vs the 120 of the artist. 2 woofers, a 4" midrnge, and one tweeter. But it seems that the Loudbox artist is being pushed now. It has almost as much power but just one 8 and a tweeter.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by rstl99

Hi all,
Merry Christmas and Season's Greetings, first of all.

My choice for an acoustic amp is settling between two choices:
1. Ultrasound DS4 (will go check it out this week)
2. Fishman Loudbox Artist (would have to order it in, no one local stocks it)

My needs are playing acoustic guitars and voice, and occasionally jazz archtop guitar. I believe both amps would do this well, in my price range.

Another option has come up:
3. Someone offered to sell me his AER Alpha 40w amp.

He's asking $100 more than I would pay for either 1. or 2. New they go for twice as much as the other two. I've read about AER and they're evidently top of the line amps. This Alpha has guitar and voice inputs, apparently great, true sound, but not as many features/effects as the other two. But I am drawn to the quality of the sound it has, and the light weight. I'll go try it out in a couple of days.

Any thoughts on how AER stacks up against Ultrasound and Fishman, and whether I should go with a used Alpha instead of either of the 2 new ones?

Thanks.

Look into Acoustic Image amps.

[pandaroo]

Originally Posted by rstl99

Thanks for additional thoughts re: Ultrasound vs Fishman.

As "buzzard" indicated, engineering issues associated with producing something with good features and decent sound at that price range can't be gotten around. Both those amp families seem to do a reasonably good job of it, with some compromises and tradeoffs. Most people have indicated impressions of Ultrasound to be more "rounded/warmer" and Fishman "sharper/sterile". Since one of the major reasons for my acquiring an acoustic amp is to be able to practice/play my jazz archtop, I may tend to lean on the Ultrasound "warmer" sound. Either one would be good for me, no doubt. Too bad I can't A/B test them with my guitars and ears, but such is life.

Speaking of Ultrasound, the shop that sells them here is quite pricey (!). I know I'm in Canada but selling the DS4 at $575 cdn when I've seen it as low as $389 us online gives me some frustration. Maybe I'll go try it out at the store, and if I like it, order one in from the US and hope the shipping/taxes/customs charges don't negate the savings This shop also has a couple of used Ultrasounds, a Pro250 and a CP100. Would these offer head-room or other advantages over the DS4? (albeit for higher cost and more weight...)

Someone else offered to sell me a Trace Elliott TA70CR from the 80's (?) at a reasonable price, but I gather this is a rather heavy amp and has probably been superceded by better gear with more features, so not worth serious consideration? (weight IS an issue for me, lugging an amp to friends' houses for jams etc.)

I have one SR Tech Jam 100 on order in wood finish. Great price for something of similar quality to the AERs.

[rstl99]

Originally Posted by pandaroo

I have one SR Tech Jam 100 on order in wood finish. Great price for something of similar quality to the AERs.

Indeed, from my short experience with my Jam 100 they appear to be a very well designed, and outstanding-sounding amp, loaded with mixing and PA features. Very flexible. Mine is also the wood finish and it's a very attractive little amplifier, would look right at home in anyone's living room!

In some post-purchase research I've done, I found out that the SRT Jam amps are the result of a partnership established in 2006 between esteemed Swiss company Schertler (designer and manufacturer of pickups, guitars, amps) and the Italian manufacturing and PA company SR Technologies (the latter build the high-end amps for Schertler, and sell a somewhat less expensive line under the SRT name, including yours truly’s Jam 100).

To me this is all good, means solid swiss engineering is matched up with experienced italian manufacturing to produce these nice-sounding amps.

I had heard that Schertler amps and pickups are used by a lot of gypsy-jazz (manouche) players. They seem to go together well. So I figure my Jam will also mate well with my Selmer-type Dupont guitar.

I'll have to investigate whether the Schertler Dyn-G pickup (for acoustic guitars) would be worth a try for my several acoustic guitars (only one of which is fitted with an internal pickup presently). The DYN-G Seems to just stick to the soundboard in a removable way, so can be used exchangeably on different instruments. I'll research and find some reviews...

[Newgrasser]

I've tried most everything on the market for over 25 years; I've yet to find any "amp" that beats a good full range box. Any will do, but I've been using powered JBLs and QSCs of late. They seem to reproduce a full range instrument better than what the amps do. Hope this helps!