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  #1  
Old 10-22-2021, 06:28 AM
Jengstrom Jengstrom is offline
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Default Odd Intonation

Hi all,

I have 2 Eastman dreads that have the same intonation quirk: the 3rd fret G on the low E string is noticeably sharp, 15 cents or more. The adjacent F# and G# are 5+ cents sharp and the rest of the notes on that string are pretty good. Intonation on the other strings is pretty good all over the neck.

What can cause this? Both guitars are in excellent shape (one is new), action and neck relief are middle of the road (and certainly no different than my Martin and Ovation, which both have excellent intonation), and the nut slot height is very good. I don’t see anything skewed on the frets. String choice makes no difference.

Any ideas? And thanks for the input.

John
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Old 10-22-2021, 06:58 AM
MikeBmusic MikeBmusic is offline
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Have you tried a thicker (or thinner) gauge string?
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Old 10-22-2021, 07:16 AM
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Same on both Eastman dreads? Fairly new strings?

In standard tuning:

Play third fret (G notes) on both strings 1 and 6. Are they in tune with each other?
Play open string 3 and third fret 6 string (G notes again). Are they in tune with each other or is string 3 a bit sharp?
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Old 10-22-2021, 07:18 AM
Sir strumalot Sir strumalot is offline
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That's interesting. I noticed the same on my E2D, but it was actually tuning instability due to a tight nut slot, which was improved with some lube and playing in. I've just checked, and the intonation at 3rd fret is spot on now. As you say, if the nut slot is too high, that would be my first thought. The only other thing I can think of is maybe the nut slot is poorly cut, so that the free end of the string is back from the edge of the nut?
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Old 10-22-2021, 08:18 AM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is offline
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It could be the release point on your nut slot is a fraction back from the front edge of the nut for some reason.
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Old 10-22-2021, 08:21 AM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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Ninety-nine percent of the time this is caused by a high nut slot. How "very good" is your nut slot height?

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Old 10-22-2021, 08:33 AM
EZYPIKINS EZYPIKINS is offline
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Sharp notes close to the nut equals high nut slot.
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Old 10-22-2021, 08:35 AM
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I always think of fret height, if all else checks out. Fretting a tall fret will “bend” a note sharp. Sounds like you may have considered this already.
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Old 10-22-2021, 08:55 AM
YamahaGuy YamahaGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnf777 View Post
I always think of fret height, if all else checks out. Fretting a tall fret will “bend” a note sharp. Sounds like you may have considered this already.
Agreed. I am heavy handed and do this on many guitars. Try fretting the string closer to the fret.
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Old 10-22-2021, 09:02 AM
rollypolly rollypolly is online now
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I immediately thought high nut slot as well. May just needs to be filed lightly for the string to sit in it better.

On a sort of related note, my new Eastman E2OM-CD came with a couple high frets - the 12 and 14 were high on the high E side , so both required some work. All the fret ends are a tad sharp as well, but nothing bad. That's the only finish issues I had with it, otherwise I very well made guitar for the $.
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Old 10-22-2021, 10:19 AM
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High nut slot and fret one would intonate sharp. OP did not say so.
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Old 10-22-2021, 10:36 AM
rollypolly rollypolly is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
High nut slot and fret one would intonate sharp. OP did not say so.
True, but it could be a combo of the nut slot being just slightly high or too tight and a high fret. I just checked my E2OM-CD and the third fret is slightly sharp if I'm not extremely gentle. Frets just might be a tad high all around. it's not noticeable with regular playing.
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Old 10-22-2021, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rollypolly View Post
True, but it could be a combo of the nut slot being just slightly high or too tight and a high fret. I just checked my E2OM-CD and the third fret is slightly sharp if I'm not extremely gentle. Frets just might be a tad high all around. it's not noticeable with regular playing.
Possibly OP info incomplete (why I had additional questions). If it is related to fret height it would probably be just a popped up end of the fret rather than the whole fret being high.
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Old 10-22-2021, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jengstrom View Post
…Both guitars are in excellent shape (one is new), action and neck relief are middle of the road (and certainly no different than my Martin and Ovation, which both have excellent intonation), and the nut slot height is very good. I don’t see anything skewed on the frets. String choice makes no difference.

Any ideas? And thanks for the input.

John
Hi John

I have thoughts.
  • If the action was set at the factory, then it is a generic setup. You should have it checked out & adjusted to your specs by a professional tech or luthier.
  • I always have my guitars setup with my choice of strings, by a luthier, and I include a set of fresh strings and ask/instruct him/her to set the action fairly low (I bring another guitar setup to my tastes to demonstrate my action and intonation). I direct them to the proper set-up guitar's saddle compensation as a guide.
  • I ask them after the action is set to then string with fresh strings, and set intonation tuned to Dropped D tuning (I want the 6th string as close to perfect as possible). I play about 70% of the time in Dropped D.
  • My experience is if the intonation is done in standard tuning, I play play sharp when I drop into Dropped D. But when when the 6th string is intonated to D, the E then plays better in tune.

I know as we grow our ear detection is more selective, and since we feel the guitar as well as hear it, out-of-tuneness is amplified to our senses more than the audience (this is not an excuse to not tune carefully using a proper tuner).

My experience from teaching fingerstyle for over 40 years…
…Most people overpress the low strings compared to high strings, and the sharpness is noticeable. I don't want to have to fudge the low string flat to make it play in tune when fretted.

Hope this adds to the discussion…




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  #15  
Old 10-22-2021, 04:29 PM
Jengstrom Jengstrom is offline
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Thanks, all. I have double and triple checked all the things you've talked about. I will take it to a luthier when I can. I suspect the problem is somewhere in the nut, but I have too many conflicting symptoms to point conclusively to anything. That's why I asked for your collective opinions.

Thanks,

John
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