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Old 03-27-2022, 09:24 PM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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Default Bloom in luthier made guitars

One of the attributes of the tone of any guitar that I like the most is bloom. By this I mean after the string is struck and the note is heard, there is a sense of expansion of the note almost as if a cloud is expanding whether ny way of overtones or higher order harmonics. When done right, the fundamental is so fat and clear that this blooming effect will not result in the overall tone becoming too busy or interfere unduly with note separation.

Does anyone else really like this trait in their guitars and who are the luthiers whom.you find most consistently achieve it in their guitars?
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Old 03-28-2022, 02:00 AM
steveh steveh is offline
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Indeed. IMHO “the bloom” is maybe the single most important attribute that I search for in a luthier-built guitar since it’s the characteristic that I think most differentiates these from the run-of-the-mill.

I first came across it on a Sobell many years ago and have encountered it many times since. As you say, the sound “swells”, after the note is played. I hear it most in super-sensitve guitars and always with long sustain. I often find myself playing single, widely spaced notes, just to enjoy this aspect. I own a Taran Mhor that has this characteristic in spades.

Cheers,
Steve
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Old 03-28-2022, 06:44 AM
volman volman is offline
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My Ryan Nightingale has a really nice bloom to the note. However, my Taran Tirga Mhor has a bloom that can give you goosebumps...just hard to describe how incredible it is.
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Old 03-28-2022, 07:14 AM
dennisczech dennisczech is offline
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Same as Steve, it's one of the most bewitching attributes, especially when tempered by a sweetness of tone (bloom can also occur in slightly harsher sounding instruments, which I find frustrating, as I love the bloom but don't like the metallic tone). By chance I recently stumbled across the most magical guitar, which combines bloom, woody sweetness, responsiveness, balance and volume in one package. And it was affordable. So I bought it on the spot. It remains magical and utterly delightful.
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Old 03-28-2022, 08:43 AM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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Thanks everyone for your posts..

Dennis, who is the luthier who made that affordable guitar with bloom that you mentioned?

For me, the guitars that exhibited this attribute the most that i have played or owned were somogyi, walker, traugott, and jang.
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Old 03-28-2022, 03:42 PM
joeld joeld is offline
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>>somogyi, walker, traugott, and jang
At least $100K in that sentence!

Is this bloom something that happens in the first fraction of a second of the note? Or is it a longer phenomenon that lasts into the note?
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Old 03-28-2022, 05:59 PM
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Fine pianos also do this, I have a 1925 Mason and Hamlin A that exhibits this behavior. It's stunning when freshly tuned.
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Old 03-28-2022, 09:14 PM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeld View Post
>>somogyi, walker, traugott, and jang
At least $100K in that sentence!

Is this bloom something that happens in the first fraction of a second of the note? Or is it a longer phenomenon that lasts into the note?
Well when I owned most of them, they were considerably cheaper and I did not have so many commitments, but yes, they are eye wateringly pricey. Still, I do believe that some comparatively cheaper guitars can have this quality as not all the very best guitars are priced at the highest end of the range.

The bloom to my ear tends to start when the note is struck and expands before subsiding back into the fundamental or trailing or dissipating into inaudibility.

Here is one of the best people to comment on this phenomenon - Ervin Somogyi...

https://esomogyi.com/articles/on-tonal-bloom/

The somogyi I once owned which was built by him.and his then apprentice Michihiro Matsuda (who has gone on to become one of the world's most creatively brilliant luthiers) displayed this quality perfectly along with a lovely round treble, the highes level of responsiveness from the fretting hand I have ever experienced and a profound bass ...

I wonder if this quality is related to the sympathetic resonance that is seen sometimes in fine watch making....

https://quillandpad.com/2017/12/17/u...ing-resonance/
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Old 03-29-2022, 01:53 PM
dennisczech dennisczech is offline
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Dennis, who is the luthier who made that affordable guitar with bloom that you mentioned?

Stephen Frith, an established classical builder over here in the UK. He built this one steel string for himself in the same shape as his classical model, which is based on the typical Hauser shape, i.e. basically slightly smaller than a typical modern nylon string, 14 3/8 in the lower bout. So the guitar is essentially a 12 fret 00 with a classical shape. It's made from a very nice piece of 20 year old Austrian spruce, and flamed European field maple (think violins) b/s. It's the only shape he builds, and he won't do 14 frets or a cutaway as he believes they are a compromise.

I was visiting him with the purpose of getting hold of some nice old spruce for a retop (no intention of buying a guitar), while I was there I played a couple of classicals that were very nice, and I said I play mainly steel string, and he said "oh, have a look at this one I built for myself". First few notes, I knew I had to have it.

I tend to be a bit florid sometimes, so I'm holding back on doing a gushing review, as I mistrust my own enthusiasm, but this guitar is a grail, lifetime quest instrument. Everyone who hears it immediately recognises that it's a special one.

Stephen doesn't know if it's a fluke, as he hardly builds any steel strings (and most builders admit that some guitars are mysteriously magical even when they achieve a consistent level of high quality), so we're going to test it out, I'm getting him to build me another one in spruce and madagascar rosewood, and he's planning to build another maple one for himself.
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Old 03-29-2022, 05:58 PM
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I don't usually pursue "Bloom" in my work, preferring to have less delay between string input and the complete sound result, but if my customer asks for it it can be achieved fairly simply. Many modern builders are moving away from the vintage "Live back" concept, preferring to isolate the top from the rest of the instrument, and this concept is not for that group. Those who do build in the live guitar vintage style, as I do, can pursue bloom by adding mass to the back plate while keeping the bracing relatively light. The heavier tonewoods make it easier to get such mass. Since the back's contribution is mostly driven by air column coupling, the additional mass slows down its response without actually impairing the hook-up. This results in "Bloom".

IMO, of course.
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Old 03-29-2022, 08:51 PM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer View Post
I don't usually pursue "Bloom" in my work, preferring to have less delay between string input and the complete sound result, but if my customer asks for it it can be achieved fairly simply. Many modern builders are moving away from the vintage "Live back" concept, preferring to isolate the top from the rest of the instrument, and this concept is not for that group. Those who do build in the live guitar vintage style, as I do, can pursue bloom by adding mass to the back plate while keeping the bracing relatively light. The heavier tonewoods make it easier to get such mass. Since the back's contribution is mostly driven by air column coupling, the additional mass slows down its response without actually impairing the hook-up. This results in "Bloom".

IMO, of course.
Many thanks for your response Bruce. What you shared was very interesting and it is always so illuminating for us to get an insight into the mysteries of luthierie from experienced luthiers like yourself.

So according to how you would do it, tonal bloom would be achieved not by improving sympathetic resonances within the guitar body but by manipulating the differing speed of sound as it passes through heavier mass back like rosewood or ebony? How would you produce bloom then if you had to use lower mass woods like mahogany or maple for the back?

Am I right to understand you that the initial attack is thus produced mostly by the top while the follow up bloom effect is then produced by the back? Does this kind of bloom differ from the kind of bloom that Somogyi referred to in his article?

You also mentioned another interesting issue in your post about how a live back is an aspect of vintage guitar construction. Is it also an important part of the Somogyi school or approach? If so then who would be the modern luthiers who fall within the school that basically take the back out of the equation at all? I would expect in classical guitar Lutherie, Greg Smallmann and all those who follow him would be an example, but would Michael Greenfield be an example of this approach for steel string? I notice he uses a tone halo bracing for his backs and I wonder if the effect basically is to nullify resonance from the back.
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Old 03-30-2022, 08:33 AM
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I sure appreciate that Bruce Sexauer shares his many years of expertise in building some of the best guitars I've ever heard.
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Old 03-30-2022, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runamuck View Post
I sure appreciate that Bruce Sexauer shares his many years of expertise in building some of the best guitars I've ever heard.
Bruce is a font of knowledge and a prince to share it with us all here!!!

Bloom on, those who love it!

Paul
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Old 03-30-2022, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
bloom can also occur in slightly harsher sounding instruments
This is because the bloom happens as a function of the way string behavior changes over time. When the string is first struck, the wave of energy goes down the string from the point struck and bounces back along the string assymetrically over time. The materials, bracing, setup, and relative stiffness of the individual guitar all contribute to the behavior of the string (sustain, wave amplitude, dynamics) and the activity of the sound waves produced.

There are some interesting time-lapse and slo-mo videos around the net addressing some of this stuff.

I like a fairly light-braced guitar with a well voiced lightweight bridge assembly to produce "bloom". I might even favor cedar tops in this case. BTW, it seems to me the bloom effect begins to wane as the strungs are struck harder.

Last edited by H165; 03-30-2022 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 03-30-2022, 09:02 PM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H165 View Post
This is because the bloom happens as a function of the way string behavior changes over time. When the string is first struck, the wave of energy goes down the string from the point struck and bounces back along the string assymetrically over time. The materials, bracing, setup, and relative stiffness of the individual guitar all contribute to the behavior of the string (sustain, wave amplitude, dynamics) and the activity of the sound waves produced.

There are some interesting time-lapse and slo-mo videos around the net addressing some of this stuff.

I like a fairly light-braced guitar with a well voiced lightweight bridge assembly to produce "bloom". I might even favor cedar tops in this case. BTW, it seems to me the bloom effect begins to wane as the strungs are struck harder.
Thanks for sharing your post. Could you give us some of those links of the slow motion video etc that illustrate what you shared?

The guitars with the most bloom from my recollection that I have played had ebony bridged rather than rosewood bridges and all of them were spruce, with the vast majority being adirondack spruce in fact. All of them.were also brazilian rosewood bsck and sides. I would agree though that light bracing has to be part of the equation as I believe all of them were braced and voiced go be highly responsive fingerstyle guitars.
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