How do you folks memorize your leads and lyrics?

[Ralph124C41]

Hi, I was just wondering. When I played electric bass in your typical local cover band I generally didn't have too much of a hard time memorizing the parts. Generally I just played note for note and when I didn't I just fell back on playing bass patterns. I very seldom played anything that would be called a bass "lead."

And the easiest part for me was that I was not a singer but just did some background "Yeah, yeah yeah" and "Ride, Sally, ride" stuff ... you know the drill.

I have always been amazed at how singers remember all the lyrics and lead guitar players remember all the notes to a lead.

Well my gigging days are over due to my age and overall crankiness and I'm trying to get back into playing bluegrass. However I'm having a hard time remembering all the leads.

How do you folks do that? And how do I do that? At jams I often see people bringing their lyrics and music sheets and I can do that ... but I'm embarrassed to do that. But it's either that or not play and keep on passing or trying to remember the lead notes and failing miserably. Of course these are friendly jams so I'm under no pressure but I've always wondered about the memory tricks or tools that musicians use.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Ralph124C41

Hi, I was just wondering. When I played electric bass in your typical local cover band I generally didn't have too much of a hard time memorizing the parts. Generally I just played note for note and when I didn't I just fell back on playing bass patterns. I very seldom played anything that would be called a bass "lead."

And the easiest part for me was that I was not a singer but just did some background "Yeah, yeah yeah" and "Ride, Sally, ride" stuff ... you know the drill.

I have always been amazed at how singers remember all the lyrics and lead guitar players remember all the notes to a lead.

Well my gigging days are over due to my age and overall crankiness and I'm trying to get back into playing bluegrass. However I'm having a hard time remembering all the leads.

How do you folks do that? And how do I do that? At jams I often see people bringing their lyrics and music sheets and I can do that ... but I'm embarrassed to do that. But it's either that or not play and keep on passing or trying to remember the lead notes and failing miserably. Of course these are friendly jams so I'm under no pressure but I've always wondered about the memory tricks or tools that musicians use.

For me, it's just playing things over and over.
I play guitar mainly - a mix of rhythm and lead - and in my main band I know all the chord sequences and lead riffs by heart (I've no idea how many songs, but anything between 50-100, probably more).
My lead playing is almost all improvised, so there's nothing to remember there. On one or two of the covers we play (it's mostly vintage rock, blues and country covers), there might be an iconic guitar solo, and I'll play distinctive phrases from that. I don't go for full note-for-note reproductions of famous solos because I think that's crazy (unless you're in a tribute band).

I have often depped on bass in another covers band, and then I made the effort to learn the original bass lines for most of the songs, because that band was more about authentic-sounding versions (and most of the bass lines were interesting anyway, worth getting right). Sometimes I would use charts then, if I hadn't played the songs that much, and definitely for songs that had complicated arrangements, or which were brand new. But usually I'd find that once I'd played the song a few times (either practising at home or live with the band) that I'd remember it all well enough without the chart. I think - over the 55 years I've been in gigging bands! - I've developed a knack for feeling my way through the structure of a song. I.e., even though my playing memory is linear (first this, then that), I can also have a bigger overview of the song, at least section by section.

I don't do a lot of singing and, because of that, lyrics are not always embedded in my brain so well - so I'll sometimes use cheat sheets for lyrics, maybe just first words of verses, because of that linear memory: it feels like I can't remember a complete song in the sense of visualizing all the lyrics at once, or knowing immediately how (say) verse 3 goes; but if I get the first words, then the others will usually come reeling out, as if each phrase reminds me of what the next phrase is.
It's usually the same process with song arrangements: I coudn't tell you the whole chord sequence, but I could play it throught from beginning to end, because each chord or chord change would remind me of the next one.

With the other members of my main band, there are interesting differences. The lead singer (who also plays acoustic rhythm) has everything in his head: all the lyrics, all the chord sequences, for the whole set, and many more. Just occasionally, for the longer songs, or the ones we rarely do, he'll need reminders (lyric sheets on the floor, usually); sometimes, in fact, I'll be reminding him of lyrics - at least the first phrase of a verse, because then he'll know the rest.
However, what this means is that he really can't bear any changes in arrangements. We can't do things like have an extra guitar solo, or bass solo, because it completely throws him. When he introduces songs, he even says all the same things every time, makes the same jokes, etc. Little bits in the songs that sound improvised, little embellishments or interjections - again all exactly the same each time. IOW, the only way he can maintain that amazing memory for everything is to keep everything rigid and fixed: the slightest change in the routine, and it all falls apart.
So while I admire his impressive memory, I find it frustrating that we can't just loosen up a little and go with the flow. He finds it hard to adjust our performance to fit how the audiences is - e.g. to change the set list if people are dancing (or if they're not).

In contrast, our bass player - who does play for one or two other bands now and then - always has a huge pad on his music stand, containing all the songs we've played (for over 20 years) and songs for other bands too. Even songs he's played countless times, he'll find it easy to get lost without his chord charts. Personally I think it's a crutch, and he probably could play lots of them without the chart. Having the charts means he doesn't need to commit things to memory, of course, but the problem is he can still make mistakes. Because he doesn't have the songs in his head (well enough), anything in the chart that's ambiguous, not clearly written, can lead to mistakes, chords changing in the wrong place. Drives me mad!

Even our drummer likes to have a music stand, but then he is a pro, with a very conscientious attitude to tempo, rhythm and arrangement - and he does work with other bands too.

In another band I used to play with, we had a female singer who was excellent, very professional, but couldn't work without her lyrics on a stand in front of her - even though she knew many (most) of the songs by heart. Again, she would sing all the same "improvisations" note-for-note the same each time.
I've always thought it bad form - poor stagecraft - that a lead singer should need lyrics on a stand. IMO, the only excuse to have a music stand on stage - for any musician - is if you are a dep, someone hired in for that gig to play a specific written part. I.e., you have a good reason for not having learned it by heart.
A music stand forms a barrier between you and the audience. For the sideman, the dep, the backing vocalist - it makes them look professional. For the lead singer - and for any other permanent band member - it just looks bad, as if you either don't care about the audience, or are just getting senile....

[Ralph124C41]

Thank you. And I agree with you that I just don't like bands or players who use things like chord or lyrics sheets. I just find it distasteful.

I have to share this one funny little story about learning stuff.

I was once invited to audition for a local rock cover group. One of the leaders, a very nice guy, gave me a list of 10 songs or so. Some I knew, some I didn't, but I think I was at least familiar with all. So I learned my bass I think very well, virtually note for note.

I went to the audition and played the 10 songs. Then the lead singer wanted me to do some other songs. I said I didn't know them, some not at all. The guy who had invited me defended me saying, "Well, I gave him these songs to learn and that's all."

Then the singer started lecturing me, "Well, you SHOULD know them so let's do this!"

I said OK I would try. And then the singer brought out a handwritten sheet of paper for the lyrics. Here was this guy blasting me for not knowing these songs ... and then he didn't know the lyrics to the songs either.

I said, "That's it" and went home.

Back to my request, there is a bluegrass jam a long drive for me once a month. I didn't go last week but I hope to go next month. And I hope to have a few songs well-known enough that I won't have to look at my sheets. There are a couple I'm familiar with and a couple more I'm almost OK with but we go around in a circle and I probably will be tagged "it" about eight to 10 times I think during the jam session. So I have a month to learn these well enough. There is one I will sing but the lyrics are easy because they just repeat the refrain and lyrics so it's like learning half a song. That one I know the lead and chords already.

[Mandobart]

For me it's a lot of listening. When I'm learning any song I listen to it a lot. Sing along with it. Play along with it.

I can sight read well but I don't bring sheet music, lead or lyric sheets when I play out. One thing that helps me learn lyrics is writing them out myself, either typing or long hand. The act of copying them manually helps me remember them.

[Ralph124C41]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

For me it's a lot of listening. When I'm learning any song I listen to it a lot. Sing along with it. Play along with it.

I can sight read well but I don't bring sheet music, lead or lyric sheets when I play out. One thing that helps me learn lyrics is writing them out myself, either typing or long hand. The act of copying them manually helps me remember them.

I understand that. But I will probably be trying to learn bluegrass leads and I've found many of the die-hard players, and I respect them, really want the song to be played as close to possible to the originals, at least for the main patterns.

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by Ralph124C41

I understand that. But I will probably be trying to learn bluegrass leads and I've found many of the die-hard players, and I respect them, really want the song to be played as close to possible to the originals, at least for the main patterns.

I've been playing bluegrass for over 40 years (since I was 13). Out west, where things are likely to be different than in other parts of the country. I learned in the oral/aural tradition - watch, listen, learn. Most of the festivals and jams out here you're expected to know the melody and then be able to add your own twist.

One universal rule I've seen is no cheat sheets, with the possible exception of the lyrics.

I love bluegrass, but for the most part it's very derivative - one song sounds a lot like another. Once you learn Sail Away Ladies you also know Sally Ann. Same for Whiskey Before Breakfast and Forked Deer. And Cherokee Shuffle vs Lost Indian. And on. The point is there aren't a whole lot of unique melodies or chord progressions.

[pieterh]

Lyrics are just about doing the work and then remembering them...

Lead runs (and bass parts, I’m a bass player too) are about hearing the notes in your head and even more importantly remembering them. This might sound facetious but for me it works - my fingers know what to do but if my brain doesn’t remember the tune then it doesn’t matter. In other words my fingers will remember what to play as long as my memory remembers the tune in the first place.

Remembering the tune in the first place; now that’s the trick…

[Ralph124C41]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

I've been playing bluegrass for over 40 years (since I was 13). Out west, where things are likely to be different than in other parts of the country. I learned in the oral/aural tradition - watch, listen, learn. Most of the festivals and jams out here you're expected to know the melody and then be able to add your own twist.

One universal rule I've seen is no cheat sheets, with the possible exception of the lyrics.

I love bluegrass, but for the most part it's very derivative - one song sounds a lot like another. Once you learn Sail Away Ladies you also know Sally Ann. Same for Whiskey Before Breakfast and Forked Deer. And Cherokee Shuffle vs Lost Indian. And on. The point is there aren't a whole lot of unique melodies or chord progressions.

Yes about the rule of "no cheat sheets." For leads and chords and I'm trying to honor that rule. I've done at some acoustic jams where there are a tight-knit group of about five players so it's OK(ish) but not at a true bluegrass jam. So that's why I'm posting here for some tips.

[Ralph124C41]

Originally Posted by pieterh

Lyrics are just about doing the work and then remembering them...

Lead runs (and bass parts, I’m a bass player too) are about hearing the notes in your head and even more importantly remembering them. This might sound facetious but for me it works - my fingers know what to do but if my brain doesn’t remember the tune then it doesn’t matter. In other words my fingers will remember what to play as long as my memory remembers the tune in the first place.

Remembering the tune in the first place; now that’s the trick…

I also agree. That's "muscle memory" as best as I can determine. And your definition/example is right on point.

Another problem which I've brought on myself is that I've listened and tried to play so maaaaaaany bluegrass or other acoustic-specific songs that I lose track. For example if at a jam somebody says, "OK, let's play This or That." I have to listen to a few notes or chords to realize the song because I'm just not all that familiar with it, at least the title. From years of playing in rock bands, however, I can pretty much pick up at least on the song I'm being asked to join in.

[Glennwillow]

The only way I can memorize stuff is to do it over and over again. It takes at least a couple of weeks of repetition for me to have it down well enough that I don't mess up in front of other people.

- Glenn

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by Ralph124C41

.... I've listened and tried to play so maaaaaaany bluegrass or other acoustic-specific songs that I lose track. For example if at a jam somebody says, "OK, let's play This or That." I have to listen to a few notes or chords to realize the song because I'm just not all that familiar with it, at least the title. From years of playing in rock bands, however, I can pretty much pick up at least on the song I'm being asked to join in.

This is where the listening part matters. You have to internalize the genre. If you have a daily commute or an hour you can spend with a play list on you should load it up with popular bluegrass tunes played in jams in your area. Shuffle them up so they're not always in the same order. Use it like audio flash cards or "name that tune."

It's particularly challenging in genres like bluegrass, old time and Irish trad where quite a few of the songs are instrumentals - there aren't lyrics to tell the songs apart. Like the old joke "what's the difference between one Irish song and another?....the name." Could apply equally to blues, bluegrass, reggae, jazz, swing, etc.

[Andyrondack]

As far as lyrics are concerned you have to accept the limitations of short term or what's called working memory, the brain can only retain a handfull of new items at a time, so learn one line then keep repeating to yourself till it has started to pass into longer term memory then add the next line and keep repeating over and over, take a break then repeat again if it's still there then add the next line. Keep doing that then just before you go to bed repeat what you have memorised, as you sleep those memories will pass from short term into long term memory. So the important thing is to stay within the limits of the number of items ( words) your short term memory can hold, as you keep testing it's limits this should increase. Unfortunately stuff doesn't stay in long term memory indefinately, you still have to repeat it over but at much longer intervals than short term , like days and weeks as opposed to seconds and minutes.

[Silly Moustache]

Ok, I know we should sing songs as if they are our stories (we are story-tellers with guitars) but ....

I am 73, my brain is full already, and my song access system is faulted.

I have given up trying to remember the lyrics of everyone of the hundreds of numbers in my repertoire.

I use "cheat sheets" - but for the sake of this thread Ill call them "prompt" sheets.

They have the song title, writer, the key (which has often varied in the last 2-3 years, intro comments and the lyrics.

I have these printed (font 14) on A4 sheets in transparent thingies in a file on a stand about waist height and as horizontal to the audience to be virtually invisible to them.

I don't sing to the sheets; I sing to the audience and glance down occasionally to remind me of the first line of the next verse or whatever.

Solos ? I don't memorise solos, my hands do. They just do.
seems my muscle memory is better than my brain memory ....... er, what were we talking about? ...... what did I come up here for?

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

I have these printed (font 14) on A4 sheets in transparent thingies in a file on a stand about waist height and as horizontal to the audience to be virtually invisible to them.

This is what I do too, when I need printouts. Keep the stand low, and ideally a little to one side. If I'm seated - which I usually am if playing solo - then it will be somewhat lower than waist height. I want the audience to be able to see all my amazing guitar work clearly...

[rmp]

We just had this discussion,, that no cheat sheets rule? I don't buy it and nobody cares.

kind of hard for me at 64 yrs to remember every nuance of a 200+ song repertoire.

Was a lot easier at 35, but now I use them.

and no one pays you less b/c you've got a book on a stand.