BagAmp in the house!

[Marshall]

Bag Amp Smackdown ! ! !

Just got back from a morning with Fingerplucked and Ipa53. And I've got Zi8 video of Bagamp trials next to the Fishman (oops) Solo amp and my little Schertler David. The videos look (and sound) good. I'll mess with them a little and then set up a YouTube channel with all the videos.

You can decide fo yo self.

[BuleriaChk]

Fishman SoloAmp? Or did you mean all three? I'm waiting anxiously - inquiring minds want to know... Although after my excellent experience with Fishman customer service, I'll stay with them for that reason alone!!..:-)

(Although I am delighted that BagAmp backed its damaged unit instantly as well.)

Originally Posted by Marshall

Bag Amp Smackdown ! ! !

Just got back from a morning with Fingerplucked and Ipa53. And I've got Zi8 video of Bagamp trials next to the Bose Solo amp and my little Schertler David. The videos look (and sound) good. I'll mess with them a little and then set up a YouTube channel with all the videos.

You can decide fo yo self.

[lpa53]

Originally Posted by BuleriaChk

Fishman SoloAmp? Or did you mean all three? I'm waiting anxiously - inquiring minds want to know... Although after my excellent experience with Fishman customer service, I'll stay with them for that reason alone!!..:-)

(Although I am delighted that BagAmp backed its damaged unit instantly as well.)

No, he meant the Fishman Soloamp. It was mine that was there this morning. I'm looking forward to seeing the videos, too, though it still takes being there to decide for yourself. And each person, with their own style and preferences, will probably come away with differing opinions.

[FingerPlucked]

Originally Posted by lpa53

And each person, with their own style and preferences, will probably come away with differing opinions.

Paul, my knife wound seems to be healing nicely. And again, I'm sorry about shooting you. I just got a little carried away.

[BoB/335]

Originally Posted by Marshall

Bag Amp Smackdown ! ! !

Just got back from a morning with Fingerplucked and Ipa53. And I've got Zi8 video of Bagamp trials next to the Bose Solo amp and my little Schertler David. The videos look (and sound) good. I'll mess with them a little and then set up a YouTube channel with all the videos.

You can decide fo yo self.

Looks to me like he said there are videos of all 3. The BagAmp, Fishman SoloAmp (Bose being a misprint), and the Schertler David.
It's nice that you did this for us to see but to make an announcement before having it ready really just adds to the craziness around here.

It would be nice to hear the opinions of those that were there in person also. (YouTube video/audio isn't always a fair rendition)

[lpa53]

Originally Posted by BoB/335

Looks to me like he said there are videos of all 3. The BagAmp, Fishman SoloAmp (Bose being a misprint), and the Schertler David.
It's nice that you did this for us to see but to make an announcement before having it ready really just adds to the craziness around here.

It would be nice to hear the opinions of those that were there in person also. (YouTube video/audio isn't always a fair rendition)

Yes, all three were there. Marshall's original post said "Bose Soloamp" when he meant to say "Fishman".

When we talked about how to post what was done this morning, one of the thoughts was to post the videos first and then, not wanting to bias anyone ahead of time, throw in our own two cents after getting some feedback from "viewers like you". Be sure that we'll all be more than happy to throw in those two cents soon.

[FingerPlucked]

Originally Posted by lpa53

When we talked about how to post what was done this morning, one of the thoughts was to post the videos first and then, not wanting to bias anyone ahead of time, throw in our own two cents after getting some feedback from "viewers like you". Be sure that we'll all be more than happy to throw in those two cents soon.

Ut oh.

Paul, I know I suggested that, but I thought we were going to go ahead and start opining anyway. Maybe I got that wrong.

Too late now though, I already posted on another forum...

[FingerPlucked]

We wanted to A/B the Fishman SoloAmp (Paul’s) and the BagAmp (mine) today. Marshall also brought his Schertler David along for comparison. Much of what we were going to do would be subjective, and as a group, we might or might not reach the same conclusions.

There was one area that I thought we might be able to quantify with some actual numbers: sound propagation. I’ve seen a few comments that the SA (SoloAmp) needs to be set very loud to get decent volumes at the back of a room & wanted to know if that was true. Last night I bought a sound level meter so we could test the SA & BA at various distances, both on axis and off axis. I thought we could keep looping the same song through an iPod and take our readings.

This morning it hit me that I could probably find a downloadable test tone for a nice steady and consistent sound to measure. And I did. But my iPod locked up. (Those things don’t have a reset button.) I tried downloading the test tone to my wife’s iPod from the other computer, but that didn’t work either. (Long story involving shared music libraries between my wife & daughter.) So I emailed the 1k Hz test tone to Paul to download to his mp3 player. I also brought along my wife’s iPod for backup. When we set up, Paul’s player wasn’t working, so we used my wife’s iPod looping Eric Clapton playing “Hey Hey” acoustically.

The room we used was more or less a big square with a wall projecting about 1/3 of the way into the middle. We set up our amps at the far end away from the projecting wall. From the “stage”, it was like playing into an L-shaped room.

We took three readings for both the BA & SA. The first was right in front of the amp about 3 feet away. The second was at the far end of the room, approximately 36 feet away. The third reading was off-axis at about 120 degrees, 30 feet from the amps. The measurements below are for one amp at a time at 3, 36, and 30 (off-axis) feet:


BagAmp: 81, 74, 69 db
SoloAmp: 79, 70, 68 db

Note that we were not trying to hit maximum sound levels. Both amps were set fairly low. The only thing we were interested in was how the sound would spread throughout the room, whether it projected well to the back of the room, and if there were hotspots in the middle and dead-spots off axis at the sides of the room.

Per our readings, there was no appreciable difference between the two amps. The sound levels, per the meter, fell off at about the same rate as we moved away from the amps. And the result from moving off axis was again about the same for both amps.

We also walked around the room and just listened while EC kept playing “Hey Hey”. You could hear a difference in tone between the SA & BA, but not in the way the sound filled the room. Basically, we had our volumes at a comfortable level, and both amps filled the room so that you could hear the music and carry on a normal conversation at the same time.

If we were the Mythbusters guys on Discovery Channel, we would have called this one “busted”.

Or not. They have more money than we do. They could have booked a huge room and run the tests again. Or they could have flown to a warmer climate and tested the systems outdoors in order to test at greater distances and to remove all sound-reflecting walls.

But given what we had to work with, I’d call both amps equal in sound propagation qualities.

Now here’s the part that bothers me. Although we didn’t get any db readings on Marshall’s Shertler amp, we did hook up the iPod and walk around the room to the ever-looping EC. And judging by ear alone, there was no difference with his amp.

I should mention that Marshall also had his amp up on a speaker pole. Without that, I’m sure we would have noticed a big difference as we moved away from the amp.

It was disappointing not to find a difference playing these amps in a room about the size of many coffeeshops. If I had known, I wouldn’t have spent $50 last night on a db meter.

Disclaimer: Everything from this point on is subjective. It’s what I heard & reflects my preferences. If I say I liked something it’s true for me, although it might not reflect someone else’s preferences (even if I am right).

After the “scientific” portion of our evaluation, Paul & I took turns playing through all three amps. Paul went first and played a song through one of the amps, then the same song on the next, and then again for the next. (He sounded good on all three, and I was getting a bad case of Déjà vu.) I followed Paul and played through all three amps. Then I again played through all three to compare reverbs (SA & Shertler) and delays (BA).

I think we agreed that BA uses a delay, not a reverb. This bothered me when I first got the amp because I’m used to playing with a little reverb. I’ve since gotten used to BA’s effect. Instead of a little reverb on my guitar & voice, I now use a little echo. Comparing the effects of the three amps didn’t do much for me since I’m now used to echo and reverb. I forgot to ask Marshall & Paul what they thought of the BA’s delay.

Physically, the BA is smaller (H, W, D dimensions) and lighter than the SA. The BA’s bag is rectangular and relatively flat with all components fitting inside. The SA’s bag is more of a long cube shape with the speaker pole attached to the side and wheels at the bottom. The SA’s speaker stand is similar to what you’d use under a JBL 15” 50 pound cabinet – it’s sturdy. If a drunk fell into the SA on it’s pole, it might topple. It might not. There’s at least a possibility that it would remain upright, depending on how hard it was hit. The BA, on the other hand, is definitely going to fall. The stand is smaller and lighter and folds to a very compact size. But if you put the BA on top of it and push on the amp, it’ll wobble or sway. In other words, it’s stable and sturdy enough to support the amp, but it’s not meant to take any abuse.

We did not try to achieve maximum volumes. I don’t think that was a major consideration for any of us.

We also didn’t spend much time adjusting eq’s. The BA, as already mentioned, only has a single tone control. I think it’s going to be adequate for me, but I’d still prefer at least a separate bass & treble control. The second time I played through Paul’s amp, I did request more mid or treble. Paul was behind me when he made the adjustment, so I’m not sure which controls he used, but it was an improvement. (And of course, he has more than one tone control.)

My amp has a mute button. So does Paul’s. So I don’t know why Paul kept forgetting to use it before plugging and unplugging.

Marshall’s amp might have a mute button too, but the amp’s controls are on the top of the amp and very difficult to see when it’s up on the pole. I think Marshall probably had to memorize the control layout so he could operate the amp without a ladder.

I’ve been saving this next part for last …

Overall, all three amps are good amps. If I owned any one of the three, I didn’t see a big enough difference to make me want to buy one of the others. I asked Paul and Marshall about that and they agreed, the differences just weren’t significant enough to justify the expense of making a switch.

I also asked which amp they would buy if they were in the market and had to choose between the three. Marshall thought about it but didn’t really answer. Neither did Paul.

I would have chosen the BA. There are certain things I like about it. There are certain things I don’t like about it. But I would have chosen the BA for it’s tone. I really like the sound of this amp.

If I couldn’t have a BA, my next choice would have been the Shertler, followed by the SoloAmp. Again, each amp had it’s strengths and weaknesses, but the Shertler sounded to me like the next best sounding amp, and the amp’s tone would be my primary criteria.

It’s worth repeating that we didn’t spend much time playing with eq. It’s possible that I would have gotten better sounds from the other two amps. It’s possible that the BA would not have been my favorite after tweaking the sounds on the other amps for my taste. But given what we had to work with, the BA was my favorite.

[tdrake]

Originally Posted by FingerPlucked

We wanted to A/B the Fishman SoloAmp (Paul’s) and the BagAmp (mine) today. Marshall also brought his Schertler David along for comparison. ...

I believe this incredible review just redeemed the value of the internets.

Which is a shame, because I've been spending way too much time online recently, and now I know I'm going to keep doing that.

You get my vote for the "if all my students wrote this well I wouldn't spend so much time online to avoid grading their writing" award.

[royd]

fingerplucked,

thanks for an informative and helpful review even if not as complete as you might have liked.

the db info was particularly helpful

[FingerPlucked]

Thanks, guys. I don't know if I drew the right conclusion, but what I walked away with today is to trust my ears and not worry about matching specs or getting too wrapped up in marketing hype.

I posted the same review over on AG. There are a couple more over there who got BagAmps earlier this week. One of the guys posted song clips of his BA with his Marshall acoustic amp. One of the others, probably the least impressed with the BA in the group, posted on another forum that he's warming up to it.

http://www.acousticguitar.com/ubbcgi...1;t=029975;p=5

I'm still looking forward to seeing Marshall & Paul's thoughts on today. (I hope they're not thinking they have to write as much as I did.)

[lpa53]

Since I've been watching the Bagamp saga with great interest on both AGF and the forum from Acoustic Guitar mag, I was really glad to have the chance to try out the Bagamp. I purchased the Soloamp on a whim when I saw a good deal last Labor Day and thereafter beat myself up for not waiting until the BA came out. After the test today I think I could have gone with either and still have been happy. There are plusses and minuses to both amps.

While the Soloamp is lighter than my old Acoustasonic Junior, the Bagamp is definitely easier to tote. It's not only that it's lighter but that the bulkiness of the Solo's two-bag system can be a bit cumbersome; the BA's rectangular all-in-one case, was very easy to carry and well-balanced. With the Soloamp's case, however, I was able to stow my mike stand using the outside straps. Of course, that made it heavier still.

When I packed the SA for the trip to the test site and lifted it by the shoulder strap, one of the plastic buckles snapped and broke. I'll definitely use it's wheels as, for with an older guy like me, it's too much weight for a shoulder carry anyway.

The sling-it-over-the-shoulder prize went to the little Schertler David!

I agree that the Soloamp is probably more stable, but if you don't play in raucus crowded venues that shouldn't be a problem. I was wondering this afternoon how much of the ten pound difference between the two amps is caused by the lightness fo the BA's stand. Also note that it you wanted to get a sturdier stand for the BA, you'd have to get one with a small diameter pole than may usually be found.

The reverb on the BA, which indeed could sound like a delay when set high, really wasn't that objectionable. When Jim would play a single chord or sing a single word, and let it ring, you could hear the delay/echo, but in the course of a song with continuous sound, it wasn't easily distinguishable from a reverb.

I thought the Soloamp had more bass response but then some wouldn't like so much low end. Some of that could have been my Guild, which is naturally heavy on that end. I thought Jim's voice sounded better and clearer on the BA set flat than on the SA flat. Again, a personal choice and one dependent on the performer's style, tenor of the voice, and the guitar used.

When breaking down and packing up, I became aware of how I was handling the SA, lifting and carrying it with both hands, one of which was on the front speaker grille. It entered my mind whether I would have done that with the Bagamp, considering the "exposed" speakers. They seemed pretty sturdy to me but I do think I'd be more careful when handling it until I learned from experience how they'd take palm pressure. I think Jack spoke to the issue of their sturdiness on one of the BA threads.

I'll note in fini that my inability to remember to use the mute button is not at all a reflection of it's being difficult to locate (on either amp) but rather of my totally amateur status! (Sorry Jim. Hope I didn't blow out anything on the BA!)

Thanks Jim and Marshall for a really fun Saturday morning. It helped take the sting off this afternoon's Army/Navy game, which saw Army losing for the 9th straight year!

[BuleriaChk]

If you want to hear what a 3 db difference sounds like, fire up your DAW and use the slider.....:-)
(FWIW, for me, it is a barely noticeable difference... YMMV.........)

Not only that, you really ought to post your reviews over on the Bose forum....:-)

[BoB/335]

Originally Posted by FingerPlucked

Overall, all three amps are good amps. If I owned any one of the three, I didn’t see a big enough difference to make me want to buy one of the others. I asked Paul and Marshall about that and they agreed, the differences just weren’t significant enough to justify the expense of making a switch.

It' s great that in this day we have such great choices! The price might make a difference for some. I also found it interesting that the BA had the choice on vocals set flat. Some, like myself, have been waiting to hear some reviews of the vocals with the BA.
I can only wonder how something like the QSC K8 would have faired. It doesn't seem to me that the line-array argument came into play much.

I was hoping to hear comments about the debate on the monitor use of these units.

[lpa53]

Originally Posted by BoB/335

It' s great that in this day we have such great choices! The price might make a difference for some. I also found it interesting that the BA had the choice on vocals set flat. Some, like myself, have been waiting to hear some reviews of the vocals with the BA.
I can only wonder how something like the QSC K8 would have faired. It doesn't seem to me that the line-array argument came into play much.

I was hoping to hear comments about the debate on the monitor use of these units.

Regarding the BA and the vocals, I think that it did what some say a "good" amp does to their guitar - it sounds like my voice only louder. That can be a good thing, but some, like me, may prefer some color. My voice can sound too high and often I think needs more bass (I may be wrong). Color, even if "muddy" can cover a multitude of sins, in guitar or voice!

Regarding the line array not coming into play, we did wonder what would happen if we had placed the Schertler in a position in which it may more often be used, on the floor or a chair. Nevertheless, in a room of this size I think the difference would be negligible for most ears. Then again, there were no bodies in the room to absorb sound coming from down low. Some have suggested that the line-array's effect is most in evidence outdoors or in a really large venue.

While I suppose the height doesn't really correspond to an argument about a line array's effect, maybe it's value is emphasized too much. It may be more important that both these units (and the Bose?) invert the usual paradigm of amp on the floor, speaker on the bottom, and controls on the top. This inversion gives you better projection just by means of the height (wthout having to buy extra gear) and still gives you easy access to the controls.

While unfamiliar with the QSC K8 (as with most electronic gear) I took a quick look at its spec doc and while it probably produces great sound well-dispersed, it doesn't give easy access to controls and only appears to have gain controls anyway. Looks like its price is about the same as the BA.