When will carbon fiber guitars come down in price?

[John Morciglio]

As if there isn't enough information overload in this thread?

Thermal expansion;

AL has a high rate of expansion/contraction when exposed to heat.
Depends on the alloy composition of course.

When drilling large (1"+) dia. holes in Al., the hole can be as much as a 1/16" larger before cooling down.

Carbon is closer to Titanium in that respect.

In general, the faster a resin or epoxy cures, the LOWER the strength;
check the hardware store adhesives, 1mi. epoxy will have a much lower strength than 5 mi. or 30 mi. cure.

Aluminum makes a very strong, durable and probably long lasting mold;
Al. HAS a fatigue life, constant heat/cool cycles might reduce it?
Carbon has infinite fatigue life, (I did not believe this for years)

Al. molds and pre-preg carbons do NOT in any way (by themselves) create a
"better" part or product.

You would think, building 2000 units a year by itself would bring the costs down.

The energy used to produce pre-preg carbon (MUST be shipped and stored at cooler temps) and also has a "shelf life.
Would be very high.
Plus the energy cost of the heat cycle, (auto-clave)?

Milling, shipping and handling of somewhat heavy Al. molds would also require more energy; (forklift needed to move a mold)???
Time and energy to produce?

Was thinking; if Boeing (military division) requires a "wet" epoxy resin,
it must be needed to build fighter jets and such? Maybe strength?
Not sure which parts are made with the high temp. resin I order?

So, your guitar that was made from pre-pregs and Al. molds,
is not very green :-)

Henry Ford was going to use "Hemp" for body panels just before the war broke out.
That would have changed auto production as we know it?
Composite panels and bodywork would have been the norm.

??? Wonder if hemp would make a good top plate or back???

JM

[perttime]

Originally Posted by John Morciglio

??? Wonder if hemp would make a good top plate or back???

There was (is?) a Rainsong model that had a carbon/glass mix for softer tone.
Somebody made bicycles out of a carbon/flax fiber mix for a smoother ride and perceived eco-friendliness.
Hemp would probably be even better than flax:
" Not only is hemp strong, but it also holds its shape, stretching less than any other natural fiber."

Hemp still has some political drawbacks, as the fiber producing subspecies are lumped together with the drugs producing ones.

[frances50]

Originally Posted by perttime

There was (is?) a Rainsong model that had a carbon/glass mix for softer tone.
Somebody made bicycles out of a carbon/flax fiber mix for a smoother ride and perceived eco-friendliness.
Hemp would probably be even better than flax:
" Not only is hemp strong, but it also holds its shape, stretching less than any other natural fiber."

Hemp still has some political drawbacks, as the fiber producing subspecies are lumped together with the drugs producing ones.

I just bought the Rainsong Hybrid model which uses carbon/glass mix. I think it may be a relatively new model.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by ac

...The reason for this question on the forum is that there are builders who use expensive, outsourced aluminum molds which limits their flexibility--but their reasoning is that every part will be identical and more consistent than from other types of molds. At least that's how it has been presented on the forum. So the general understanding has been--aluminum is more expensive--but somehow better.

One of the 4 main builders does not do it this way but still produces consistent, high quality guitars and is able more quickly to create new mold and so is more flexible making custom builds. He does say that making the mold is still time intensive--but it's much faster and less expensive than outsourcing an aluminum mold. His methods conflict with other builders and so there has been this outstanding question regarding methods...

It took years for Taylor team to come up with a GS Mini prototype that Bob Taylor would put his name on, and once a sample was approved, they spared no expense on tooling that would ensure every GS Mini that ships to customers will be just like the original. Cookie cutter constancy is not a concern for a builder who builds maybe a dozen or so of any one model per year of course, for them a less expensive easily altered mold will work.

And yes, a more flexible method will allow a builder to build you a guitar that looks like a fish, or a shooting star with 20 strings, but tone is rarely guaranteed with these one off creations. Blackbird, CA, and Rainsong have well proven models which they stick to, and although all of them could build you a one off guitar in the shape of a shooting star, none will do it, because they can't guarantee a tone they will be willing to put their name on.

I bought my first Rainsong back in 2000, an OM1000 I was planning to leave up at our vacation house in the local mountains. That guitar sounds just like the ones I sell new today. By contrast, we had an older Emerald go through the store that Alistar built before closing the original shop, that guitar was nothing like the ones he builds today. And other than the pointy headstock, I very much liked that guitar, almost kept it. I actually think there would be more interest in his guitars if the tone of his current models came closer to that old guitar. But hey, what do I know?

Originally Posted by frances50

I just bought the Rainsong Hybrid model which uses carbon/glass mix. I think it may be a relatively new model.

The Hybrid model was introduced in 2010, it was designed to use a slightly less expensive material mix to better compete with CA's RAW models. We later found out that CA was loosing money on ever RAW model they built, and went under that same year, so Rainsong didn't need to worry about them at all. But the Hybrid models were out, and as it turned out, some folks liked them not for the lower cost, but for the tone, which is slightly mellower with increased mid range than the standard CF models. You do give up some projection and clarity, but we all know CF guitars have plenty to spare.

Curious about mixing hybrid with CF, our first Rainsong custom run, the LA1-LE was a an OM using a unidirectional top, with hybrid back and sides, sort of a "best of both worlds" model, and it was very well received, I even kept one. The following year Rainsong introduced the Shorty using this combo, along with the new 12-Fret NS neck, and it is one of Rainsongs most popular models. Today Rainsong offers well over a hundred different combinations of their models so figuring out our next custom run wont be easy, but I have a few ideas.

[ac]

Originally Posted by perttime

There was (is?) a Rainsong model that had a carbon/glass mix for softer tone.
Somebody made bicycles out of a carbon/flax fiber mix for a smoother ride and perceived eco-friendliness.
Hemp would probably be even better than flax:
" Not only is hemp strong, but it also holds its shape, stretching less than any other natural fiber."

Hemp still has some political drawbacks, as the fiber producing subspecies are lumped together with the drugs producing ones.

Blackbird has the new line made from flax composite. Apparently different tone and more natural look, still stronger than wood and not bothered by the elements.

Would hemp be too coarse for guitar material? Maybe it can be made into fine threads? I've heard nothing about hemp but would love to see what a hemp guitar looks like, and sounds like.

Edit: Just looked at the hemp website. If they make dresses from hemp, the threads are fine enough for guitar I suppose.

Blackbird, are you there??

[jwayne]

Originally Posted by ac

Blackbird has the new line made from flax composite. Apparently different tone and more natural look, still stronger than wood and not bothered by the elements.

Would hemp be too coarse for guitar material? Maybe it can be made into fine threads? I've heard nothing about hemp but would love to see what a hemp guitar looks like, and sounds like.

Edit: Just looked at the hemp website. If they make dresses from hemp, the threads are fine enough for guitar I suppose.

Blackbird, are you there??

Hemp Fiber Composites: http://www.hempline.com/applications/composites/

[perttime]

Originally Posted by ac

If they make dresses from hemp, the threads are fine enough for guitar I suppose.

Yep. Hemp fiber is about as good as a natural fiber can be.

For my tastes, many carbon guitars sound a little more "crisp" than I really like. Design can do much but using other fibers - or mixing carbon with other fibers -
may well widen the tonal range you can get from composite guitars.

[Steve Christens]

There was a long thread over at MacNichol's forum some years ago asking "Does Emerald have a distinct cost advantage?"

http://macnichol.com/forum-post/5274

At the time I posted:

I once commented that the inside of an Emerald was so neat, with no visible excess resin drips that I thought it must be laid up using pre-preg cloth, with the resin built into the fabric. But IIRC Alistair hinted that he did not use pre-preg (not that there's anything wrong with that.....).

So if he guitars really are one piece as he says, then he must be doing something akin to composite bladder molding, in which you insert a bladder into a mold that is lined with a lay up, and pressurize the lay up (layers of carbon fiber cloth and resin) into the correct shape during curing. And then remove the bladder at the end. This is how things like composite tubes are made, and even golf clubs:

"A method for manufacture of a hollow complex three-dimensional fiber golf club head having at least one hole. A fluid-removable core is shaped in the general form of the golf club head, placed in a flexible pressurizable bladder around the core, at least one ply of fiber impregnated with a curable resin is wrapped over the core and bladder, and a cured part is formed by pressurizing the bladder while the core, bladder, and impregnated fiber is in a female mold to force the plies against the inner surfaces of the mold. After heating to cure the resin, the bladder and the fluid-removable core is removed from the interior of the cured part by disintegrating core with a fluid sufficient to allow removal of the bladder."

But for the life of me I just can't imagine how to do all this through the sound hole of a guitar. Which is probably why Alistair is making them and not me.

The frustrating thing about this and CAs was that originally they use to measure the angle of the neck to the body, and then trim the sides of the guitar to establish the correct angle BEFORE they glued the top on. Clearly somewhere along the line they omitted this trimming step - which must have been VERY labor intensive - or they would not have had all the problems with neck angles that they did.

In the end the consensus seemed to be that he controls cost by employing a team of leprechauns who work cheap.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by perttime

...For my tastes, many carbon guitars sound a little more "crisp" than I really like. Design can do much but using other fibers - or mixing carbon with other fibers -
may well widen the tonal range you can get from composite guitars.

This is exactly what Rainsong has done with their hybrid, glass/carbon material, back in 2010, and Blackbird with their Ekoa natural fiber material in 2013.

[sumokids]

Whatever Alistair is doing, I hope he keeps doing it. My X20 is a great guitar by any measure. Fit and finish are flawless, neck angle is dead on, has both a bevelled arm rest and bevelled cutaway (two features not offered by CA, Rainsong, or Blackbird, as far as I know). Sounds rich and full and loud, and looks gorgeous. The aesthetics are not for everyone, admittedly, but they play much better in person than in pictures.

As for his current guitars being different than his older ones, most true innovators don't repeat themselves indefinitely. Just look at all the changes Andy Powers is bringing to Taylor.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Steve Christens

...The frustrating thing about this and CAs was that originally they use to measure the angle of the neck to the body, and then trim the sides of the guitar to establish the correct angle BEFORE they glued the top on. Clearly somewhere along the line they omitted this trimming step - which must have been VERY labor intensive - or they would not have had all the problems with neck angles that they did...

Wow! Given that the back, sides and neck are built on one mold, grinding away at the sides before applying the soundboard would be the only way to adjust neck angle on CA's. I can't imagine omitting this step.

CA, like Rainsong, Emerald, and Blackbird, has had its moments with Jesus. They are working a new frontier and it covers a lot of territory. CA cut some new ground and made a lot of mistakes. I feel lucky to have had one of the CA Cargos. It's all good.

[Claytone]

Great Thread Guys!!! I would also like a Carbon Fibre Cello, but they are Way too expensive...Unless Alistair??? Hmmmm...

[tommyld]

Ted, thanks for sharing your insider/salesperson point of view, and for being a strong proponent of CF!

Originally Posted by sumokids

Whatever Alistair is doing, I hope he keeps doing it. My X20 is a great guitar by any measure. Fit and finish are flawless, neck angle is dead on, has both a bevelled arm rest and bevelled cutaway (two features not offered by CA, Rainsong, or Blackbird, as far as I know). Sounds rich and full and loud, and looks gorgeous. The aesthetics are not for everyone, admittedly, but they play much better in person than in pictures.

As for his current guitars being different than his older ones, most true innovators don't repeat themselves indefinitely.

Agreed. I think Alistair is on top of his game. I've owned over a dozen various CF guitars since 2003, and Emerald is among the most meticulous work I've seen. And I think Alistair exploits CF's strengths--one-piece construction, sculpting--more than most others. (Though Blackbird is right up there!)

The X20 is an excellent guitar, super resonant, and makes an amazing 12-string. Love the bevels and curves, too.

About the aesthetics not being for everyone, I think that's true for most CF guitars. But I admit, it wasn't until the last few years that Emerald started to draw my attention. The earlier Emeralds, the pointed headstock, pointed fretboard end, and thick metal adornments (for rosette and headstock) weren't my style...so I bought CAs, a few Blackbirds, a Rainsong. But when I wasn't looking, Alistair's designs got sleeker, more tasteful (in my opinion), and more ambitious, with really artistic sculpting. He seems to be constantly progressing.

I've also found Emeralds to be the most attractively-priced CF guitars, with quality/value on-par or rivaling other builders. I also appreciate his willingness to take on in-depth custom work.

Okay, clearly I'm now a fan. Just wanted to second the appreciation.

[Steve Christens]

I too am a big fan of Alistair and Emerald, and have been surprised at some of the criticism I've encountered. Years ago I was at The Podium in Minneapolis, a great guitar store and - at the time - a big dealer of CA and Rainsong guitars. I had just tried out an Emerald X5 on one of MacNichol's road trips, and asked one of the owners at the Podium if they might consider carrying Emeralds too. He said it was Chinese made junk and he would never consider carrying it. I replied that Emeralds were made in Ireland, not China. But the owner had seen the box that an Emerald arrived in and insisted that the box said made in China.

Which is true, sort of, in that the cases (gig bags) for Emeralds are indeed made in China, and Alistair has been known to reuse the box for the case, and ship his guitars in the case inside the box. Whatever........