Guitars Improving with Age?

[upsidedown]

Originally Posted by MikeD

I could not agree more. Just because someone is a famous musician or celebrity does not mean they know what they are talking about when it comes to certain topics. Case in point is Clapton referring to his 000 from the infamous "unplugged" recordings as an OM in numerous interviews. I give more credence to what people around here with actual experience have to say over what a celebrity has to say.

You seem to be saying that James Taylor, because he's a "celebrity" doesn't have as much "experience" as do the people on this forum. But that can't be right.

[Misifus]

Yup, they do. I started playing in 1964. In 2003, I took delivery of a brand new Kinscherff. It sounds better now than it did then, and I doubt that my experience has increased that much. Without going into detail (I've recounted this several times here) I have specific data that confirm my impressions.

-Raf

[Landru]

Originally Posted by Red_Label

If the poster's impression of Taylor's statement was indeed fully accurate in terms of his thoughts... then Taylor is saying that guitars only wear-out with age, whereas violins magically improve with age. Seems an awful SILLY sentiment to make regarding stringed musical instruments, both of which are made of wood.

One is a flattop, the other an archtop - that is the difference.

[Von Beerhofen]

Are there actually 200 year old guitars that when strummed a bit forcefully wouldn't desintegrate into dustparticles?

Ludwig

[Von Beerhofen]

If only my guitars didn't sound so different with every change in the weather. Taken this into acount I can imagine how it changes over the years, it would still change according to the weather, sound great one day when the sun is out and crap the next when it poors.

Ludwig

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by upsidedown

You seem to be saying that James Taylor, because he's a "celebrity" doesn't have as much "experience" as do the people on this forum. But that can't be right.

That's not quite what I said, and it's not what I was getting at, but based on how I worded it I can see how you made the jump to that. I was talking more about Celebrities in general that make all kinds of ridiculous claims and statements that people take as the gospel because the person is famous. I never doubted James' "experience", I simply said that just because he's a celebrity or famous does not mean he necessarily is 100% correct all the time with his statements. I respect him as a player and musician, but that does not mean I have to agree with everything he says or that I must buy what he uses. I would venture to say that there are "some" people on this forum (and on other forums like the UMGF) with at least as much or even more experience than James when it comes to guitars, repairing them, playing them and understanding how they age over time. James' opinion is just that... an opinion. It is but one data point in an ocean of data points, and ocean that is both deep and shallow with knowledge, thoughts and opinions. It just seems to me that at times people give an unreasonable amount of credence to the opinions of celebrities, when in fact very few of them actually know anything more than us or know anything different than we already know... and that is not aimed at James, but rather the collective body of celebrities around the world, which was more the point of my previous post... but I guess I didn't go into detail since I thought my inference would be understood. Many celebrities market and sell what makes them money, and many yet have formed opinions from experiences they've had in a rather different path of life than the normal person, yet their opinions and claims are often held in much higher esteem than the average Joe with real life experiences that pertain more to the topic at hand rather than a skewed perspective from someone that has spent the past few decades of their life living in a very privileged environment. I guess what I'm trying to say is that just because a celebrity says something that does not make it necessarily so.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by upsidedown

You seem to be saying that James Taylor, because he's a "celebrity" doesn't have as much "experience" as do the people on this forum. But that can't be right.

I'm fascinated by the variances in interpretations of posts. I cannot see how one can possibly interpret the quoted sentences below as meaning that being a celebrity signifies less experience than that of an AGF member.

"Just because someone is a famous musician or celebrity does not mean they know what they are talking about when it comes to certain topics. ...I give more credence to what people around here with actual experience have to say over what a celebrity has to say."

[Alan Carruth]

I skipped over a lot of the responses: this one comes up frequently, and usually ends up with the same folks posting the same opinions.

I've made measurements of the response of some guitars as they aged, and they do change. Basically, the top 'loosens up', so that the main resonance drops a little in pitch and it moves more air for a given input. Since the main top resonance in in the low mid-range, you'd expect the low end to be enhanced, and it is, but the high end can also get stronger.

'Better' is a big word, since it's a matter of opinion. I usually feel that guitars that start out a bit 'tight' tend to get better, and ones that start out with a 'bassy' tone tend to become 'tubby', but that's just my opinion.

At some point I mean to get some better data, and publish something on this. We builders don't get paid for doing research, though, and it takes a lot of time.

[kydave]

"Just because someone is a famous musician or celebrity does not mean they know what they are talking about when it comes to certain topics. ...I give more credence to what people around here with actual experience have to say over what a celebrity has to say."

If you take that emphasized portion to mean forum people with learned experience and knowledge about acoustic guitars, especially specifics - then I'm sure there are quite a few folks here who know much more than the average "celebrity" who happens to play or play at guitar.

On the other hand, there certainly are very real guitar players/afficianados who are also celebrities & who know boatloads of history and trivia about the guitars they play and care about.

No contradictions, necessarily...

[Sir_YubYub]

Im very sorry for posting on this. I meant to start my own discussion but I'm using my phone to do it and didnt realize where i was making my original post. Will some kind soul send me a message and let me know how to remove my post. Again to the original poster: im sorry for the confusion on my part

[devellis]

I've read scads of theories about why guitars might sound better as they age. Some are really intriguing but none have been proven. I personally believe that they do change but I don't know what processes are responsible. Nor do I know for sure that my belief is correct. I suspect it isn't one thing that changes, though, because that's kind of how nature usually works. Multiple factors typically are at work when things age.

My favorite theory (not because it's right but just because it sounded cool) was that polymers form within wood cells. Playing breaks up those polymers into shorter segments. When a guitar is left unplayed for a long time, the shorter segments start "healing" themselves back together again. As I said, I have no idea whether any of that is even remotely true but it's a nice story.

What would really be remarkable and exceptional would be if guitars didn't change with age. They certainly change color, as anyone who's taken a pickguard off of an older guitar can confirm. Just about everything I can think of does change with the passage of time. What the nature of those changes is and how it impacts tone is where the mystery lies.

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

I skipped over a lot of the responses: this one comes up frequently, and usually ends up with the same folks posting the same opinions.

I've made measurements of the response of some guitars as they aged, and they do change. Basically, the top 'loosens up', so that the main resonance drops a little in pitch and it moves more air for a given input. Since the main top resonance in in the low mid-range, you'd expect the low end to be enhanced, and it is, but the high end can also get stronger.

'Better' is a big word, since it's a matter of opinion. I usually feel that guitars that start out a bit 'tight' tend to get better, and ones that start out with a 'bassy' tone tend to become 'tubby', but that's just my opinion.

At some point I mean to get some better data, and publish something on this. We builders don't get paid for doing research, though, and it takes a lot of time.

Well, reading through this thread was worth it, especially to get to Alan's comments. VERY INTERESTING stuff.

Thanks Alan!
- Glenn

[mdutr0]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

Hi Sir YubYub,

Even if your guitar has improved with age -- and it might have or might not have -- it doesn't play itself. I'm sure you have a great deal to do with the good sound.

We have discussed this subject a lot on the AGF, but not lately.

A lot of builders and players do believe that guitars change over time, though it is very hard to prove one way or the other. There also seems to be some consensus that some guitars will change more than others. But there are plenty of people that are somewhat skeptical that any meaningful changes are occurring, and instead, suggest that the notion that guitars "open up" is just a sales tool.

It seems that the best agreement on this subject we have had on the AGF is that a player should purchase a guitar based on the way it sounds when he/she buys it. If it gets better later, then it's a bonus. If it doesn't improve, that would be okay, too.

The fact that players who really go after learning the guitar are likely to improve also complicates the whole equation. Is it the guitar or is it the player or all of the above? My thought is, if the overall sound gets better, we all win.

How does the guitar change, if it changes at all? My own experience is that guitars tend to acquire a little more bass and seem to sound and feel slightly looser, less tight. But the difference from new to "opened up" is generally pretty subtle, and not all guitars go through this subtle change.

- Glenn

I tend to be more on the skeptical side of the debate but I basically agree with everything Glenn said. He's a wise and level-headed fella.

Let me say this though - I have never seen or played an acoustic guitar without a finish of any kind. Whomever your friend is (s)he is mistaken about that. Any guitar you buy in a store will have either a satin or gloss finish.

[upsidedown]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

I'm fascinated by the variances in interpretations of posts. I cannot see how one can possibly interpret the quoted sentences below as meaning that being a celebrity signifies less experience than that of an AGF member.

"Just because someone is a famous musician or celebrity does not mean they know what they are talking about when it comes to certain topics. ...I give more credence to what people around here with actual experience have to say over what a celebrity has to say."

It seemed pretty clear to me. Not sure how you missed it. Even MikeD said, "but based on how I worded it I can see how you made the jump to that."

I agree that it's silly to give more weight to a celebrity's opinion, simply because they're celebrities. And I wouldn't give any more or less credence to James Taylor's ideas than to the celebrities of this forum. At the same time I'm not going to discount his views just because he's famous! He has been playing the guitar for over 50 years, so I'd say he's earned the right to his opinions.

More to the point, if you watch the video, you'll get a better idea of what JT was saying about guitars and the aging process.

[Jamie9]

My 2 have gone through certain tonal improvements with lots of playing and a bit of time ( I think), but I really doubt my wife, the kids and the dog have noticed. I'm sure there is a fair bit of psychology going on with us willing our guitars to sound better. Also I think we learn to play our guitars better not only as our musicality improves, but we hone in on how to get the best tone from a particular instrument.