K&K Pure Mini with HD28 Martin on Bose L1

[kramster]

Originally Posted by tochiro

Thank you kramster, I have found the Utility menu. As far as I understand it choosing this high-pass filter inhibits choosing the Taylor guitar model. It is one or the other...

Look at the settings in the bypass and match them within the Taylor set up in the EQ areas. Play around till it is what you want and save it , maybe as a scene.

[tochiro]

The settings in the bypass... what do you mean? Thank you for your time.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by tochiro

...What do you think of K&K Vintage Jack? I would like to avoid modifying my guitar.

Hi Chris...
Have heard, and run sound for, many folks with Martin Dreadnaughts with K&K Pure Western Mini's in them, and they all sound great - like guitars.

Have never seen one with a Vintage jack (am familiar with what they are). Unless the guitar is a collector's item a standard jack will be more sturdy and be more serviceable should anything ever go wrong with it. If you are installing a K&K the guitar has been modified.

I have heard them with and without preamps, and while both sound good, the preamplified ones always sound better.

[dberch]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

Try plugging a K&K raw signal into a power amp and listen.

The K&K requires preamplification (and impedance buffering) before the signal hits a power amp. It's simple physics. I'm not making this up.

Perhaps you and I use different definitions for the term "preamp". Perhaps during your experience as an owner/operator and installer you haven't noticed that the signal chain in question has preamplification.

Again, the K&K's signal needs preamplification (and impedance conversion) prior to hitting a power amp. Always.

sdelsolray, I wish you the best on your continued quest to educate us common folk.

[dberch]

Originally Posted by tochiro

The settings in the bypass... what do you mean? Thank you for your time.

Hey, Tochiro, you should contact Bose support and talk to them. They are all working musicians, and dedicated to helping their compatriots and customers.

Phone: 1-877-335-2673
Web: http://bose.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?cdra=Y&s=8206048934

David

[66strummer]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray
Try plugging a K&K raw signal into a power amp and listen.

The K&K requires preamplification (and impedance buffering) before the signal hits a power amp. It's simple physics. I'm not making this up.

Perhaps you and I use different definitions for the term "preamp". Perhaps during your experience as an owner/operator and installer you haven't noticed that the signal chain in question has preamplification.

Again, the K&K's signal needs preamplification (and impedance conversion) prior to hitting a power amp. Always.

sd.........

I don't know who would plug any guitar into a raw power amp. You're talking about a PA amp or an acoustic guitar (combo) amp? A PA amp generally needs a mixer (as you and most of us already know) or you have no controls aside from a master volume control. As long as you have a mixer, IMO the K&K would work fine. Obviously it would sound better using a preamp prior to the mixer for added gain, control and impedance matching.

[donh]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

Try plugging a K&K raw signal into a power amp and listen.

I have actually done this!

I plugged my guitar with a PWM straight into one channel of a QSC PLX1100 using a 10' lo-cap cable.

It sounded great, altho the low end was rolled off quite a bit due to the lower (read: incorrect) impedance load of the power amp. I had good gain, and the tone would have been quite usable in a rock-stage setting.

Sorry, dude.

I MUCH prefer using a DTAR Solstice or a PUTW Power Plug or any of the fine K&K Preamps as a buffer and gain stage, tho.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by 66strummer

sd.........

I don't know who would plug any guitar into a raw power amp. You're talking about a PA amp or an acoustic guitar (combo) amp? A PA amp generally needs a mixer (as you and most of us already know) or you have no controls aside from a master volume control. As long as you have a mixer, IMO the K&K would work fine. Obviously it would sound better using a preamp prior to the mixer for added gain, control and impedance matching.

That mixer input for the K&K adds preamplification to the signal, i.e., it acts as the preamp (among other things). Same for an acoustic amp. My point was simple - the K&K mini, being a passive pickup, requires preamplification - always.

When folks say, "The K&K works fine without a preamp", they are wrong. It doesn't work without a preamp. What (I think) they mean is that it works fine using the preamp in an acoustic amp or mixer board and does not necessarily need a preamp closer to the guitar, such as a PADI, etc.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by donh

I have actually done this!

I plugged my guitar with a PWM straight into one channel of a QSC PLX1100 using a 10' lo-cap cable.

It sounded great, altho the low end was rolled off quite a bit due to the lower (read: incorrect) impedance load of the power amp. I had good gain, and the tone would have been quite usable in a rock-stage setting.

Sorry, dude.

Add to that the extra noise and frequency behavior problems (due to variable impedance coming from the pickup). Yeah, a real treat.

Originally Posted by donh

I MUCH prefer using a DTAR Solstice or a PUTW Power Plug or any of the fine K&K Preamps as a buffer and gain stage, tho.

Of course. The K&K requires a preamp to work as designed.

[donh]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

Add to that the extra noise and frequency behavior problems (due to variable impedance coming from the pickup). Yeah, a real treat.

Nope. no extra noise. LESS gain stages, mmmm-k?

Variable impedances are all over the place (pun intended). no need to go there.

It was a usable sound, tho far from my favorite. :-)

Please please understand that "good" often fails to follow strict scientific guidelines, and all we as musicians need is 'good' as defined by 'usable' or 'pleasant.

[66strummer]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

That mixer input for the K&K adds preamplification to the signal, i.e., it acts as the preamp (among other things). Same for an acoustic amp. My point was simple - the K&K mini, being a passive pickup, requires preamplification - always.

When folks say, "The K&K works fine without a preamp", they are wrong. It doesn't work without a preamp. What (I think) they mean is that it works fine using the preamp in an acoustic amp or mixer board and does not necessarily need a preamp closer to the guitar, such as a PADI, etc.

Thanks for clarifying that......

You're right. In essence, even going direct to a board there is a preamp in the mix, with tone controls etc.....

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

...When folks say, "The K&K works fine without a preamp", they are wrong. It doesn't work without a preamp. What (I think) they mean is that it works fine using the preamp in an acoustic amp or mixer board and does not necessarily need a preamp closer to the guitar, such as a PADI, etc.

Hi sdsr...
You are correct, at least in my case. I try to specify 'external' preamp to that built into the amp or board.

However, I cannot conceive of anyone ever building a rig with just a raw power amp. Thanks for clarifying, but I have (as someone else mentioned) plugged directly into a power amp (monitor system) and it works that way too...K&K's have a lot of gain...

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by donh

Nope. no extra noise. LESS gain stages, mmmm-k?

Yes, more noise. Perhaps you didn't hear it. More likely, you didn't compare the K&K => power amp vs. K&K => preamp => power amp signal chains, each set so that each outputs the same SPL through the speakers. The signal to noise ratio will be quite a bit higher with the first chain, less with the second.

Originally Posted by donh

Variable impedances are all over the place (pun intended). no need to go there.

Yes, and to the extent they can be mitigated within a signal path the better the behavior of the resulting sound. This is one of the things an impedance converter does, and it is typically located in a preamp.

Originally Posted by donh

Please please understand that "good" often fails to follow strict scientific guidelines, and all we as musicians need is 'good' as defined by 'usable' or 'pleasant.

For sure, much about sound is subjective. Nonetheless, much about sound is objective. That's the part I'm talking about. I call it "signal chain hygiene". Perhaps some musicians are fine with whatever they plug in as long as it "works" - they are not interested in anything more. Perhaps this is your definition of "good". There are also terms as such as "better" and "optimum" of which most musicians, I would think, would prefer over "mediocre". Whether players take the time to optimize their signal chain is their choice.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi sdsr...
You are correct, at least in my case. I try to specify 'external' preamp to that built into the amp or board.

However, I cannot conceive of anyone ever building a rig with just a raw power amp. Thanks for clarifying, but I have (as someone else mentioned) plugged directly into a power amp (monitor system) and it works that way too...K&K's have a lot of gain...

I often see new players get confused with the term "preamp". For example, I remember a poster who was told he didn't need a preamp for the K&K. A few days later he was posting about why his guitar sounded like crap and had all this noise because he had simply plugged it into a computer soundcard (line in).

The K&K's nominal output is measured in millivolts. Stronger than many other passive pickups, but not anywhere near line level. Plus, the impedance of that signal varies quite a bit depending on frequency, and is very high. A power amp is expecting to see a signal measured in volts, not millivolts, and is expecting to see a tamed low impedance balanced signal.

[donh]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

Yes, more noise. Perhaps you didn't hear it. More likely, you didn't compare the K&K => power amp vs. K&K => preamp => power amp signal chains, each set so that each outputs the same SPL through the speakers. The signal to noise ratio will be quite a bit higher with the first chain, less with the second.

yes, we did. and we also noted we liked the K&K +preamp + power amp chain better despite the slightly higher noise level. (yes, really - we also were comparing another power amp + preamp at the same time and the other amp had "proper" input impedance but was far noisier than the QSC when an input signal was applied)


You Also Said: Yes, and to the extent they [the impedance issues] can be mitigated within a signal path the better the behavior of the resulting sound. This is one of the things an impedance converter does, and it is typically located in a preamp.

the preamp has an input impedance, and hopefully one that is close to the load the pickup wants. being closer, hopefully the effects of the impedance variations are somewhat mitigated. <--- please note the wording, thankyou: variations are variations, it's all a tone control!


You ALSO Said: For sure, much about sound is subjective.

heh.

thanks for playing!