Advice on carbon fiber full vs hybrid

[outwestbound]

Originally Posted by AZLiberty

Old X7 next to my Larrivee Parlor. It's small. The Larrivee is an 0 size, the X7 is not only smaller, but feels a lot smaller due to the bevels.




Old X7 and New X7 next to each other:



Honestly though, I'd probably go with the Journey overhead. You can always leave the neck on.

Thanks so much. Great pictures! We're looking at the Journey OF660 for sure. Biggest issue is sizing, especially the neck profile and dimension. I'll email the manufacturer. The only info I have on the 660's neck is a comment on a Youtube video that someone wished its "D" neck where a "C" shape. Hopefully, the manufacturer can give me the profile and dimensions at the 1st and 9th (or 12th) fret.

On the Emerald X7, the older and newer versions, which profiles would you say best match those necks? How would you compare those necks to Taylor's neck profile and dimension?

Also since you have both, does the veneer on your newer X7 affect the tone? It just seems like adding that wood and resin (or whatever the substance is) over the top would make a difference.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/kuRUDTR5BFG1rXaHA

Thanks

Nice comparisons.

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by outwestbound

...

Also since you have both, does the veneer on your newer X7 affect the tone? It just seems like adding that wood and resin (or whatever the substance is) over the top would make a difference.

Thanks

My X20 has a veneer; my X7 is black carbon weave; the X10 is a red tint over the black carbon weave. Each one sounds great. I have played an X20 or two without the veneer, and each sounded pretty much like mine. Alistair has said that there is no difference in volume or tone with/without the veneer. As I understand, they make an allowance for the veneer in the build-up. There is no wood that you can touch on the veneer models - when they are laid up, the veneer is encased in resin (as I understand). It is all about the appearance. All those bevels and compound curves, however, make all the difference in comfort with the Emeralds.

[AZLiberty]

Originally Posted by outwestbound

We're looking at the Journey OF660 for sure. Biggest issue is sizing, especially the neck profile and dimension.

On the Emerald X7, the older and newer versions, which profiles would you say best match those necks? How would you compare those necks to Taylor's neck profile and dimension?

Also since you have both, does the veneer on your newer X7 affect the tone? It just seems like adding that wood and resin (or whatever the substance is) over the top would make a difference.

Thanks

1 - I have played an OF660. I don't remember what the neck is like.

2 - Emerald's necks are somewhat D shaped, flatish in back with somewhat wide shoulders. Rainsong is more C shaped, thicker than a Larrivee, maybe more like one of the thicker Martin necks. The only Taylor I have is a 12-string, so...

3 - The new X7 actually belongs to my Brother in Law. I took the pic for the group when he visited last year. These veneers are paper thin, so the weight is inconsequential compared to the epoxy that holds everything together.

[steelvibe]

Originally Posted by outwestbound

Biggest issue is sizing, especially the neck profile and dimension. I'll email the manufacturer. The only info I have on the 660's neck is a comment on a Youtube video that someone wished its "D" neck where a "C" shape. Hopefully, the manufacturer can give me the profile and dimensions at the 1st and 9th (or 12th) fret.

Using my digital caliper the following measurements were taken from my OF660 in mm:

Neck Width/ Neck Depth

Nut 45/ 22

7th 52/ 24

12th 56/ 26

The neck is described on Journey's website as having a "reinforced traditional C shape". That is pretty accurate, but instead of the C having narrow tapers as it approaches the fretboard like other C necks, it kind of squares off about 1/4" before joining the board. I really like it! I'm not a fan of a chunky neck but I'm also not a fan of a super slim profile either.

[outwestbound]

Originally Posted by steelvibe

Using my digital caliper the following measurements were taken from my OF660 in mm:

Neck Width/ Neck Depth

Nut 45/ 22

7th 52/ 24

12th 56/ 26

The neck is described on Journey's website as having a "reinforced traditional C shape". That is pretty accurate, but instead of the C having narrow tapers as it approaches the fretboard like other C necks, it kind of squares off about 1/4" before joining the board. I really like it! I'm not a fan of a chunky neck but I'm also not a fan of a super slim profile either.

This is extremely useful Steelvibe! Thanks so much for your time. We're small people and less flexible in our late 50s. The 660's fingerboard, nut and string spacing would be the largest we own, but the 660 is the direction we're going. The neck thickness will be large for us, but we'll work into it. Still, the OF660 makes the most sense for our overall purpose and goals, some of which are unique to our travels. We're thinking that we'll learn and play more fingerstyle, for which the OF660 seems ideal.

We love the Emerald X7, but concluded we'd have to order a custom to get some of it's dimensions down to our sizing. Based on our research, some dimensions include a fingerboard width @ 12th of 2.3"/58.42mm, nut 1.75"/44.45mm and bridge string spacing 2.25"/57.15mm. Despite the narrower fret spacing due to the 24" scale, these dimensions collectively put the X7 out of bounds for our little hands.

Thus we'd likely have to order a custom guitar and spend $3,500 or whatever. While affordable, this option isn't practical given that the guitar will be bouncing off gravel at campsites in South America. Damage is going to happen and I don't want the brain damage trying to prevent that. Another issue peculiar to our needs is that, if someone told me at a campfire that they paid $150 for an orange topped OF660, I'd believe them. I doubt I would if it were an X7. Remaining low profile in South America, and with vehicular overlanding in general, can be the wise choice.

Thanks again.

[steelvibe]

Originally Posted by outwestbound

This is extremely useful Steelvibe! Thanks so much for your time. We're small people and less flexible in our late 50s. The 660's fingerboard, nut and string spacing would be the largest we own, but the 660 is the direction we're going. The neck thickness will be large for us, but we'll work into it. Still, the OF660 makes the most sense for our overall purpose and goals, some of which are unique to our travels. We're thinking that we'll learn and play more fingerstyle, for which the OF660 seems ideal.

You're welcome! I fell in love with mine. I don't look at it like a travel guitar at all, but rather a guitar that happens to travel well. It has become my go-to. They amplify so good too; I play mine through an LR Baggs Session DI and then either into a Fender Acoustasonic or Yamaha THR5A depending on the need. If you find it isn't for you you could always sell it. Here is a video of Jonathan Koh reviewing it. Granted he is using some very high quality recording gear but this is what it sounds like mic'd (no idea what mic he is using) and finally through his user interface of choice.

[outwestbound]

Originally Posted by steelvibe

You're welcome! I fell in love with mine. I don't look at it like a travel guitar at all, but rather a guitar that happens to travel well. It has become my go-to. They amplify so good too; I play mine through an LR Baggs Session DI and then either into a Fender Acoustasonic or Yamaha THR5A depending on the need. If you find it isn't for you you could always sell it. Here is a video of Jonathan Koh reviewing it. Granted he is using some very high quality recording gear but this is what it sounds like mic'd (no idea what mic he is using) and finally through his user interface of choice.

Sounds great for such a small package! We like the slim C as we try to get our thumb around to mute the low E, but this looks fine. It is what it is.

As I learned about composite guitars for this OF660 purchase, it occurred to me that I may be better off replacing my wood guitar(s) with composite, because we're not going to stop traveling. In the last years, I've hauled my wood guitars around in a large fifth wheel/F350 rig and frankly, it's a PITA. They are very well cared for, but at increasing aggravation.

I love my Taylor 512 -12 fret and Martin OOO21 custom shop (both shorter scale), but composite may be a better fit. We'll cross that bridge perhaps in a couple years after this current trip. By that time, we are hoping the composite industry has some shorter scale offerings in the OOO/OM size, or maybe OO size, with a neck we can play.

I like the Rainsong's P12 parlor, but the N2/NS neck seems too large, which I think is a mistake on RS's part. A new offering in 2023 like Blackbird's discontinued Lucky 13 would be nice for us smaller folks as a "full size" guitar (for little people).

I haven't been able to get any useful info on the profile and sizing of Blackbird's Savoy eKoa model, but we like that guitar a lot. We read some technical info on the composite from their other company web site. If it doesn't delaminate around the joints in the acoustic application, it seems like a winner.

Or, a custom Emerald may work. We think the necks are too wide (2.3" @ 12th). I'd order one with a more narrow nut, reduced string spacing and more narrow neck. The time we are ready, Emerald may have a standard offer in our sizing.

[Aspiring]

I have a BlackBird El Capitan that I like a lot and haven't tried the savoy although have to admit it is tempting

The neck is definitely more of a D shape my calipers put it at .87" at first fret 1.13 at the 12th although that is measure squeezing the strings down so actual is going to be a little less. I had worries about the neck when I picked it up (used) as I also don't like fat necks. However it seems to play much more like a slimmer neck than it is at least to my hands.

The neck on my x7 is definitely slimmer (stock nylon profile) @.83 and .925 respectively as well as being more c and wider due to nylon.

I will have to say even though the Blackbird has a bit of a bevel in the back the ergos are definitely not a match to the Emerald or my Edwinson jumbo that has front and back bevels. No worse than a non bevel wood instrument though and maybe slightly better given that the El Capitan is a very big guitar. I would say the Blackbird is well worth checking out. Also it to me doesn't have the flash and high value look that the emerald does although it is still a nice looking guitar and I believe the savoy is going to end up being a more expensive guitar than the Emerald.

I also don't think it has quite the strength that the carbon instruments do for impact resistance however still definitely has the environmental robustness.

[outwestbound]

Originally Posted by Aspiring

I have a BlackBird El Capitan that I like a lot and haven't tried the savoy although have to admit it is tempting

The neck is definitely more of a D shape my calipers put it at .87" at first fret 1.13 at the 12th although that is measure squeezing the strings down so actual is going to be a little less. I had worries about the neck when I picked it up (used) as I also don't like fat necks. However it seems to play much more like a slimmer neck than it is at least to my hands.

The neck on my x7 is definitely slimmer (stock nylon profile) @.83 and .925 respectively as well as being more c and wider due to nylon.

I will have to say even though the Blackbird has a bit of a bevel in the back the ergos are definitely not a match to the Emerald or my Edwinson jumbo that has front and back bevels. No worse than a non bevel wood instrument though and maybe slightly better given that the El Capitan is a very big guitar. I would say the Blackbird is well worth checking out. Also it to me doesn't have the flash and high value look that the emerald does although it is still a nice looking guitar and I believe the savoy is going to end up being a more expensive guitar than the Emerald.

I also don't think it has quite the strength that the carbon instruments do for impact resistance however still definitely has the environmental robustness.

Great info. If a G string is .024 for Elixir Nanos 12 gauge, that's .846 and 1.106. The sleekest full sized acoustic I have is a 2016 Martin OOO21, 24.84 scale with the modified low oval and performing artist taper. It's .825 at the 1st and .912 at about the 10th. My 2016 Taylor 512-12 fret, 24.875 scale neck is .847 to .90 at the 10th.

I lay a 1/4 stainless steel nut vertically on the fretboard between the strings to measure off of, then subtract the nut thickness from the total. Someone showed me that.

So it appears the El Capitan at .846 and 1.106 starts out well then just doesn't taper much. Those flatter D necks are deceiving, especially when you do get a dimension but no side profile. Those "shoulders" hamper my little fingers trying to get the thumb around.

I doubt composite builders have the tendency wood builders have to overbuild the neck, to minimize warranty cost exposure. Maybe they have this bias and don't realize it. I'd guess they're just going for the sweet spot to get production up. Hopefully, they'll expand offerings in time if they are successful enough. I'd like to see some slim C neck profile offerings in the .82-.84 to .880.92ish range using 1.69 nuts and narrower boards. Anyhow, the mechanical properties of eKoa are fascinating: https://lingrove.com/mechanicalproperties

Yes, the Emerald brand will likely be getting my dollars in the future. I'm not impressed with the ergos of the Savoy. It's just underthought - not prime time and the pricing structure of their guitars, frankly, is off putting, IMHO.

Maybe Emerald will offer a slimmer C neck under a more narrow board within a couple years as a standard. If not, I'll get a custom, but some of the custom upcharges turn an X7 into an expensive proposition quickly. In any event, Emerald does seem to be at the top of the list.

[Aspiring]

I suspect the neck thickness of the Blackbird has to do with the hollow sound tube and the spacing needed for thin carbon reinforcing structure inside it.

And would agree on the blackbird pricing although there are some well thought out materials like stainless frets etc in there.

I picked mine up used at a decent price but they are not easy to come by in the used market. I don't think I would have been interested in paying full price.

[outwestbound]

Originally Posted by Aspiring

I suspect the neck thickness of the Blackbird has to do with the hollow sound tube and the spacing needed for thin carbon reinforcing structure inside it.

And would agree on the blackbird pricing although there are some well thought out materials like stainless frets etc in there.

I picked mine up used at a decent price but they are not easy to come by in the used market. I don't think I would have been interested in paying full price.

If it's the company I'm thinking of, it wasn't necessarily the "amount" of money (although surely enough in price), but the structure. It seemed like some options should have been in the advertised base price, in that range. Like should a case be extra? Really? The 510 tuners should be standard, etc..

But I was really impressed with the eKoa material and their use of it in guitars. If Biden puts wood on the "do not use" list with oil, coal and the derivatives of same, the eKoa should be on a robust trajectory. :-)