LR Baggs Soundscape

[guitaniac]

On the subject of ToneDexter, I wonder how Soundscape will compare with ToneDexter in the area of feedback rejection. That should be an interesting comparison.

ToneDexter does a finite reduction of two resonant frequencies for a particular guitar/pickup rig, while Soundscape makes a "feedback profile" of three resonant frequencies and provides an anti-feedback knob which allows the user to dial out a selected amount of those resonant frequencies.

Lloyd Baggs has commented that the Soundscape's anti-feedback feature may be the Soundscape's "sleeping dog" aspect. It'll be interesting to learn what kind of bite the sleeping dog has.

[steelvibe]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

Lloyd Baggs has commented that the Soundscape's anti-feedback feature may be the Soundscape's "sleeping dog" aspect. It'll be interesting to learn what kind of bite the sleeping dog has.

Prolly can hear frequencies that we mere humans simply cannot.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by steelvibe

Prolly can hear frequencies that we mere humans simply cannot.

In that case, it will be very similar to my first gig experience with ToneDexter.

[jonfields45]

I think Fishman's competitive advantage is 25 hours of operation on a single 9v alkaline battery. They got started early enough that even the pedal probably could not handle the computational requirements of playback using the current state-of-the-art 40 mS, 2048 coefficient, IR. As a result they developed techniques around a shorter IR fortified with traditional EQ (IIR). The short IR saves power, and IIR techniques are very power stingy but notoriously hard to program. In EE undergrad you find IIR filters are often named after their inventors, where as an FIR filter (the thing that "plays" your IR) can be designed by trial and error.

As a result of this compromise, Aura does not lend itself to generating its IR with IIR outside of their premises, and to my ear some aspects sound a little funky as you up the IR percentage in the mix. And finally because it is a downloaded IR, if you don't like their mic placement, or your individual guitar has some variation from the factory one, it can't be optimal to your ear. I think the mic selection they advertise is mostly marketing.

I think ToneDexter's competitive advantage is no IR algorithm compromise for battery operation, a custom IR quality controlled by you, and a completely self contained DIY solution in one bullet proof over designed metal box that if you wish can be left not updated until you pass this earth :~).

When Soundscape comes to market, it will be interesting to see where it fits.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

I think Fishman's competitive advantage is 25 hours of operation on a single 9v alkaline battery. They got started early enough that even the pedal probably could not handle the computational requirements of playback using the current state-of-the-art 40 mS, 2048 coefficient, IR. As a result they developed techniques around a shorter IR fortified with traditional EQ (IIR). The short IR saves power, and IIR techniques are very power stingy but notoriously hard to program. In EE undergrad you find IIR filters are often named after their inventors, where as an FIR filter (the thing that "plays" your IR) can be designed by trial and error.

As a result of this compromise, Aura does not lend itself to generating its IR with IIR outside of their premises, and to my ear some aspects sound a little funky as you up the IR percentage in the mix. And finally because it is a downloaded IR, if you don't like their mic placement, or your individual guitar has some variation from the factory one, it can't be optimal to your ear. I think the mic selection they advertise is mostly marketing.

I think ToneDexter's competitive advantage is no IR algorithm compromise for battery operation, a custom IR quality controlled by you, and a completely self contained DIY solution in one bullet proof over designed metal box that if you wish can be left not updated until you pass this earth :~).

When Soundscape comes to market, it will be interesting to see where it fits.

Outstanding synopsis as usual Jon. I also liked your comment in the Sable thread about the RS Vintage Dread - which may have been a better choice for me too.

[Marshall]

Originally Posted by pagedr

Sounds like their answer to the ToneDexter?

It's trying to be.

I won't be switching.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Marshall

It's trying to be.

I won't be switching.

Too many people passing judgment on the Soundscape and it hasn’t even been released yet.

[Racerbob]

Really, take you phone, plop it on a table edge and record into it. Half the tuning apps on phones don't work all that well. Kind of seems like going for the lazy market.

[Doug Young]

Skeptical bunch :-) I'm surprised at how few companies are taking advantage of mobile devices. You've got what would have been considered a supercomputer not that long ago in your pocket, with a very flexible user interface, built-in mics that can be calibrated, flexible IO, etc. All just waiting to be leveraged, as Baggs is doing. Pretty smart, I'd say. I wouldn't be put off by a few cheap tuner apps, we'll see more apps that really exploit what's possible in the future.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Skeptical bunch :-) I'm surprised at how few companies are taking advantage of mobile devices. You've got what would have been considered a supercomputer not that long ago in your pocket, with a very flexible user interface, built-in mics that can be calibrated, flexible IO, etc. All just waiting to be leveraged, as Baggs is doing. Pretty smart, I'd say. I wouldn't be put off by a few cheap tuner apps, we'll see more apps that really exploit what's possible in the future.

I think you need decide where the manufacturer puts their effort. Porting an app to different OSs and OS versions, compensating phone by phone model for mic variation, OR generating a better sounding IR.

ToneDexter may have no app or USB interface, but it is complete and Audio Sprocket's engineering investment is going into how it sounds, not how it looks on your phone.

And if it's such a good deal to use the phone's applications processor chip, Soundscape should MAP as the bargain it implies. A lesser processor embedded in the pedal will take longer to calculate an IR, but so what. My IR generator runs in a second or so on (multithreaded) Matlab, but more like 5+ on (single thread) Octave. I think we've all got that much extra time.

I am going to put up on the AGF an IR demo by Shufflebeat today, done with a UST and an SM57 (you know, the microphone you already own by unscrewing the pop filter off your SM58) using my and Cuki's IR generators. You don't need an expensive mic or pickup. Soundscape saving you a mic is a feature of limited value IMO.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

I think you need decide where the manufacturer puts their effort. Porting an app to different OSs and OS versions, compensating phone by phone model for mic variation, OR generating a better sounding IR.

ToneDexter may have no app or USB interface, but it is complete and Audio Sprocket's engineering investment is going into how it sounds, not how it looks on your phone.

And if it's such a good deal to use the phone's applications processor chip, Soundscape should MAP as the bargain it implies. A lesser processor embedded in the pedal will take longer to calculate an IR, but so what. My IR generator runs in a second or so on (multithreaded) Matlab, but more like 5+ on (single thread) Octave. I think we've all got that much extra time.

I am going to put up on the AGF an IR demo by Shufflebeat today, done with a UST and an SM57 (you know, the microphone you already own by unscrewing the pop filter off your SM58) using my and Cuki's IR generators. You don't need an expensive mic or pickup. Soundscape saving you a mic is a feature of limited value IMO.

Let’s just wait and see. I think what we need to realize is that most musicians don’t want to spend time setting up microphones and trying to get good wavemaps. I understand people on here understand the IR process but for the majority of players, that is a foreign concept.

A post above mentioned the Soundscape as basically a lazy approach. I disagree, I think Lr Baggs are trying to make the process even more simple for the average musician. Maybe it won’t come out as natural as the Tonedexter but let’s say it gets 60% of the way there. For most players that will be a huge step forward. Even the Aura imaging is often set at a blend of 30/40% which is not 100% natural but it sounds amazing live. You don’t always need the most authentic mic’d tone. I don’t even run my Tonedexter wavemaps at full character. Generally it’s around 70%.

With that said, who knows how good the Soundscape will sound. It might be “meh” but it might be really good. Let’s just wait and see. There are tons of gear out there that utilize apps but still have exceptional tonal qualities. I don’t think it’s right for us to speculate that Baggs spent more time on the app vs the tones.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

I think you need decide where the manufacturer puts their effort. Porting an app to different OSs and OS versions, compensating phone by phone model for mic variation, OR generating a better sounding IR.

You're doing the same thing, leveraging existing hardware (computer) and an existing software environment, which I think is smart. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big ToneDexter fan, as I suspect everyone on AGF knows. But I also think leveraging mobile devices is a smart move for anyone. My experience working in a corporate mobile development environment wasn't as bad as your, apparently :-). Note that as far as both the MAP and the DSP processing goes, Baggs will be selling a hardware device. We'll have to see, but I would imagine the app will be a free download - you'll pay for the pedal. I don't think the tradeoff you're suggesting is necessarily true, needing to deal with the platform issues doesn't rule out doing a good job on the IR.

I am going to put up on the AGF an IR demo by Shufflebeat today, done with a UST and an SM57 (you know, the microphone you already own by unscrewing the pop filter off your SM58) using my and Cuki's IR generators. You don't need an expensive mic or pickup. Soundscape saving you a mic is a feature of limited value IMO.

I totally agree, and I keep telling people the mic is no big deal, but if you read the ToneDexter threads, you'll see that "mic anxiety" seems to run really high. Astonishing to me that any musician serious enough to want to improve their sound would not own at least a a 57 or 58, but it does not appear to be the case, even here on AGF. Now with the phone, we'll get a variation on this, where people don't believe the phone mic can work and will worry about that. Always something...

I don't have any inside info on the delay in Soundscape, other than what Lloyd has said publicly, but I do know of multiple other manufacturers who are having trouble getting parts for their hardware devices right now due to the virus. I'd also not be surprised if someone in Bagg's marketing is debating whether it makes sense to release a product aimed at live performance in the current environment. So we'll see...

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

There are tons of gear out there that utilize apps but still have exceptional tonal qualities. I don’t think it’s right for us to speculate that Baggs spent more time on the app vs the tones.

My product app use experience is primarily limited to Bose, so maybe not representative.

The apps many of us use on our phones to configure external devices are a thin layer of software on top of standard OS browser support (running on the phone OS and the target hardware's RTOS).

Taking a sample with a phone's mic and calculating an IR (and uploading the pickup sample over Bluetooth), which must be correlated in an absolute sense to what we hear, is a much bigger project.

Any DSP powerful enough that it can play the IR back in real time could also calculate it. That is a much smaller development project IMO.

[jonfields45]

This is a fun thread! Smart experienced people debating the unknowable!

Sorry if I got carried away. I started my career at Bell Labs, where the real claim to fame should have been everyone there had an opinion inversely proportional to direct knowledge.

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

Any DSP powerful enough that it can play the IR back in real time could also calculate it. That is a much smaller development project IMO.

Not so sure...